A Different Kind of Blog

news and things sacred and irreverent put together by opinionated people.

Does GOD “Hate Fags”?

This page came from LiberalsLikeChrist site. 

Does GOD “Hate Fags” ?

What makes “Christians”  superior to Homosexuals?   gopvsgay3          What makes so-called “evangelical” Christians feel so morally superior to others?  I believe that many such people know in their hearts that they are “petty” people, i.e. the French word for “small” (intellectually, emotionally or morally, if not physically), but they try to build up their self-image by trying to tear other people down.  Sadly, many such people who have been nurtured in Christian communities have been taught ways of using the holy scriptures to view homosexuals as moral inferiors, just as their Christian forebears were taught to use those same scriptures to despise Jews, and then black people.  Every now and then such people seem compelled to prove just how “normal” heterosexuals like themselves are by brutalizing and/or killing supposedly “abnormal” homosexuals !
        Matthew Shepherd was a kind, gentle and unassuming young college student, until he crossed the path of the wrong “normal” people.  Matt was viciously beaten and then tied much like “the good thief” to a fence, and left there to suffer alone and die.  What makes Matt’s case stand out from the hundreds of other such cases is his funeral, because several dedicated so-called “Christians” went out of their way to attend his funeral in Laramie, Wyoming and to demonstrate with their signs and their shouting their firm belief that “God hates fags“.  They succeeded in communicating their message of hate, not only to Terry’s family and community, but to the whole world through the television coverage they rightfully expected this funeral would receive.
        The Rev. Phelps who inspired this (and many other such demonstrations)  has dedicated his life to this “ministry”, using among other tools, his internet site, where he proudly display a daily count of how many days Matthew Shepherd had supposedly been in hell. 


A letter from a son who left the Phelps family / church
       Mark Phelps wrote the following to the citizens of Topeka, Kansas, homebase for his (in)famous father.  It is printed at his request in The Capital-Journal on May 19, 1993.  Contacted by telephone in California July 7, 1994, Mark Phelps said the letter still represents his feelings.  He also cautioned people against taking the letter out of context, saying there is “gentleness” in the context of the letter and a hope that the community can better understand Fred Phelps based on what the letter contains.

        “Many people have been asking me, over the past several weeks, about my father.  They want to know what I think about him and ‘What is he really like?’ People’s interest in what I think baffles me, but after careful consideration, I decided to respond.
        What is he like? Well, it’s been 19 years since I left home, but his behavior still appears to be the same.  He considers his environment to be against him without admitting, acknowledging or taking responsibility for how he contributes to that.  He likes to show himself as being moral, pro-family, pro-Bible, but his actions just don’t add up to that.  I believe in God and the Bible, and my father’s behavior doesn’t fit the description of behavior that would show in the life of one who loves God; behavior characteristics such as Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self-control.  Instead, my father’s behavior characterizes, I believe, Hate, Outbursts of Wrath, Contention, Jealousy, Vengefulness, Misery, Harshness, and Selfish ambition.  He misstates the truth about his own behavior, about others, about the Bible, with apparent ease and regularity.  He behaves with a viciousness the likes of which I have never seen.  He accepts no genuine accountability in his life and is subject to no one.  His lifestyle betrays the sacred trust of what a pastor, husband, father and grandfather should be.  I suppose if a comparison were made between the life of Jesus Christ and my father, there would not be much to compare.
        I also realize that my father is a very unstable person who is determined to hurt people.  And because he is so bound to be hateful and hurtful, and because he’s so untrustworthy, I believe it’s a good idea to respond to him with caution much like the caution used when dealing with a rattlesnake or a mad dog.  You see, the causes that he crusades for, including the Bible, are not the issue here.  He simply wants to hate and to have a forum for his hate.  If the causes he focuses on were the issue, that is, if they really meant something to him in his heart and he meant for the things he does to be for the good, his behavior would not be what it is.  He would not betray his message with his behavior.  But, when he needs to, to vent his hate, he readily goes outside the bounds of any previously stated ‘value’ or ’cause’ he may have supported.  He experiences no moral dilemma when it comes to doing what he wants to do.  If it weren’t the homosexuals, it would be something else.
        Yet checks and balances on his behavior are appropriate, on the part of the community, in order to at least confine his destructive behaviors and to limit his influence.  I believe that Topekans are making a good effort to try and stop him and should continue to do so.  He can seem very intimidating.  He can use foul language and come across with a booming voice to the community, but the truth is, like the Wizard of Oz, when Toto pulls the curtain back, instead of this big powerful individual, it’s only a small, pathetic old man.
        I feel sorry for my father as I would for anyone who displays this kind of hate and evil viciousness.  These can only be the manifestations of tortured, injured and agonizing souls.”
        — Mark W. Phelps

 

 

What is so special about
biblical injunctions against homosexuality?


        The bible recommends and/or condemns all kinds of behaviors.  Why the obsession in our day and age with what the bible may say about this one behavior?  Could it be that Conservative preachers who don’t want to upset the majority of their followers find it convenient to “scape goat” this unpopular minority, which they perceive to be outsiders? All such preachers profess to believe in the Ten Great Commandments. Yet what to they do about the Sabbath Commandment? Do they insist that those who don’t observe it properly be killed, as they are clearly told to do by “God’s Word”? Do they insist that none of their flock work or patronize any kind of business on that day? How many businessmen would support such churches if they were being told to shut down their businesses, and not make any money on that day each week, including entertainment and transportation businesses? See much more on this topic at , including a letter of mine which was published in teh New Haven Register
The Biblical sin of Sodom
wasn’t about homosexuality


        No story in the Bible has been used more to persecute homosexuals than the story of Sodom (and Gomorrah). By the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas had come to see all disasters of any kind as God’s wrath at homosexual sin. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, collapsing buildings, runaway horses, women falling into ditches – all these and more were understood to be expressions of God’s displeasure at “the wickedness of Sodom.”  But people who view the biblical narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah as a story about “Sodomy” (or homosexuality) haven’t read the rest of the bible.  If all one reads in the Bible is the 19th chapter of Genesis, the first book of the bible that would be an honest mistake.  But read through the 48 references to the word “Sodom” in the rest of the bible and you learn that the writers of the bible hardly ever associated the fate of Sodom with what Conservative Christians now call “Sodomy”.
        Although today’s Christians have been programed to view this story as an account of homosexuality gone wild, that’s not what the bible authors themselves saw in that story:

  • In Deut. 29: 23-26 . . .”destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger– they and indeed all the nations will wonder, “Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused this great display of anger?” They will conclude, “It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. They turned and served other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them”
  • Deut. 32:32 also speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah, without any hint of homosexuality.
  • The prophet Ezekiel, for example, wrote in 16:49-50 : “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”
  • The first chapter of Isaiah speaks of God’s unhappiness with Sodom and Gomorrah, but says nothing whatever about homosexuality. What it does say is ” learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.” (1:17)
  • Isaiah mentions Sodom again in 3:9 and in 13:19, but there in connection with homosexuality.
  • Jeremiah also mentions Sodom again without any connection to homosexuality.
  • The Prophet Amos also mentions Sodom in 4:11 without any connection with homosexuality.
  • The Prophet Zephaniah likewise mentions the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah in 2:10 without any connection with homosexuality, but rather “in return for their pride, because they scoffed and boasted against the people of the Lord of hosts.”
    The Deuterocanonical books identify the sin of Sodom as the worship of competing gods (idols) pride and inhospitality:
  • In Wisdom 19:13-14, we read “…whereas the men of Sodom received not the strangers when they came among them.”
  • In Ecclesiasticus 16:8 the sin is recognized as pride: “He did not spare the people among whom Lot was living, whom he detested for their pride.”
    In the New Testament, too, there is reference to Sodom and inhospitality:
  • In Luke 10:10-13, Jesus compares the fate of towns that are inhospitable to his disciples to that which beset Sodom of its inhospitality.”Whenever you enter a town and they do not welcome you, go out into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off in protest against you. Yet know this: the kingdom of God has come near.’ I tell you, on that day it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for that town.”
  • Paul referred to Sodom and Gomorrah only once ( in Romans, 9:29 ) and not in connection with homosexuality.
  • The same is true of the Book of Revelations, which referred to Sodom only once (8:11) and not in connection with homosexuality.
  • Peter likewise referred to Sodom and Gomorrah only once ( in 2 Peter 2:4 ) and not in connection with homosexuality.
  • Finally, in one of the very last books of the Bible, Jude (1:7), the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah is attributed to unnatural lust, i.e. “Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Sin is NOT Homosexuality

        I’ve read a lot of the news reports on Rev. Barnes’ resignation from his megachurch after he “confessed” his homosexuality. They all quoted a religious leader on the right who declared homosexuality a sin, and several stated their belief that homosexuality was a choice.
        None directly quoted a religious leader who flatly countered these positions. Let me do that here.
        There is no sin in being homosexual or in engaging in same sex eroticism in a loving, just relationship. The sin is homophobia, the denigration of our neighbors because they are physically and emotionally attracted to people of the same sex. The sin is heterosexism, the presumption that heterosexuality is normative for all people and morally superior. The sin is forcing people to deny their God-given gift of their sexuality and to suffer to try to live their lives in a way that is antithetical to who they really are. The sin is violence and discrimination against GLBT persons and denial of their civil rights. The sin is when any of us, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual, violate our commitments to our partner and hurt our families. The sin is making sexual decisions that hurt us and hurt others.
        Reverends Haggard and Barnes are primary evidence against the myth that people choose their sexual orientation. Both confess that they have struggled with their same sex attractions their whole lives. They tried to pray it away; they tried to marry it away; they tried to make it go away by having sex with women they loved; they tried counseling to make it go away. From the news reports, it certainly seems that they did everything they could to “change.”
        But, they couldn’t. No more than I could change my sexual orientation…or you change your’s.
        It’s time for the churches that condemn homosexuality to learn that lesson. It’s time for the congregants to think through what it means to “love your neighbor as yourself.” I am reminded of this line from I believe Meister Eckart, “When will grown men and women stop believing in a God that makes them sad? It is a lie, any talk of God that does not comfort you.”
        posted by Rev. Debra W. Haffner ,
a sexologist for 30 years, who was ordained as a Unitarian Universalist minister in 2003, after seven years of study and preparation; the author of five books, including two award winning books for parents, From Diapers to Dating and Beyond the Big Talk, as well as several books for congregations on sexuality issues.


        When religion loses its credibility by Baptist preacher, Oliver “Buzz” Thomas, is another superb editorial / sermon that I highly recommend in its entirety.         

Biblical Problems with Gay Marriage


        If you believe that “the United States is a “Christian nation” and support the idea of a so-called “Defense of (biblical) Marriage Act” because of what the bible teaches, then you should prove your sincerity by promoting the rest of what the Bible teaches about marriage. To begin with, (in keeping with Gen. 29:17-28; II Sam. 3:2-5) that Act should be modified to read “Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women“.  Then U. S. law should be revised to incorporate the following :
A. (in keeping with II Sam. 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron. 11:21) marriage must not impede a man’s right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives. 
B. (in keeping with Deut. 22:13-21) in order to be considered valid, a marriage the bride must be a virgin.  If she is not a virgin, she must be executed.
C. (in keeping with Gen. 24:3; Num. 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh. 10:30) marriage of a believer and a non-believer must be forbidden. 
D. (in keeping with Deut. 22:19; Mark 10:9) since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce. 
E. (in keeping with Gen. 38:6-10; Deut. 25:5-10) when a married man dies without children, his brother must marry the widow.  If he refuses to marry his brother’s widow or deliberately does not give her children, he must pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law. 

A Homosexual Marriage in the Gospels?        According to Matthew’s Gospel  1:16 Mary’s husband Joseph was the son of Jacob, who traced his ancestry to King David through his son Solomon.  But contrary to Matthew’s account, Luke’s Gospel  3:23-24, claims that Joseph was the son of Heli, who traced his totally different ancestry to King David through his son Nathan.  So “the Word of God” states very clearly that Joseph had two fathers, Jacob and Heli.  Was this a “gay marriage”?  Or is this just one of the many contradictions to be found in the Bible?

        Here’s a letter to everyone who, like Dr. Laura Schlessinger, choose a select few verses of the Book of Leviticus, which they consider “God’s Word” when they want to lecture homosexuals, but which they completely ignore when it comes to a great many other prohibitions of that very same book, namely Leviticus, Ch. 18, which claims God Almighty for the source of all which follows, “The Lord spoke to Moses, saying:’ Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: I am the Lord your God. You must not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You must not follow their statutes. My ordinances you must observe and my statutes you must keep, following them: I am the Lord your God.  You must keep my statutes and my ordinances; by doing so one shall live: I am the Lord.’ :Dear Dr. Laura,
        “Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law.  I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.  When people try to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination.  End of debate.
        It’s so great to have somebody here who knows the Bible so well.,   Reading that part of the Bible, I’ve made a list of questions you can probably answer for me:

  • I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21.  In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I’ve got three, so I may be able to make a killing (so to speak)!
  • I know that I am not allowed to touch women while they are in their her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24).  The problem is, how do I tell which are and which aren’t?  I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
  • Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians.  Can you clarify?  Why can’t I own Canadians?
  • I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.  Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put such people to death.  Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or are there priests or something I can report them to?
  • A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.  Can you settle this?
  • Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight.  I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.  Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
  • Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.  How should they die?
  • I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear lambskin or wool gloves?
  • My uncle has a farm.  He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend).  He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.  Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?  (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?  (Lev. 20:14)

        I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
        And thanks for reminding us of God’s eternal and unchanging word of truth.
        Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.”


On Oct. 18, 2000, West Wing’s President Bartlett did a great job
of delivering many of these same lines to a “Dr. Jacobs” .
Two clips of that marvelous scene may still be available at
clip 1 & clip 2 (1.4 meg each).         Since “the Word of God” tells us that “A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, . . . for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God” { Deuteronomy 22:5 }, why is that it’s so difficult to find any picture of Dr. Laura wearing anything other than a pant suit?


hatefilled23
    These children don’t even know yet if they are homo- or hetero- sexual,  But ignorance has never prevented preachers from using others who are even less educated than themselves to promote their causes.

“Marriages are not in trouble because 50% of them end in homosexuality!”
The “many a truth is said in jest” reporter, Jon Stewart,
[ to Bill Bennett, June 07, 2006 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkLxVgXSveA&NR ]


“Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality” :
Explode the Myths, Heal the Church
, by Jack Rogers.
       A life-long evangelical and a respected Presbyterian theologian, Rogers argues that fidelity to the Bible demands equal rights in the church and society for people who are LGBT. Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality describes Rogers’ own change of mind and heart on the issue; charts the church’s well-documented history of using biblical passages to oppress marginalized groups; argues for a Christ-centered reading of Scripture; and debunks oft-repeated stereotypes about gays and lesbians.
        “The best methods of interpretation, from the Reformation on down through today, call upon us to interpret the Scripture through the lens of Jesus Christ’s life and ministry. Using this method we see clearly that Jesus and the Bible, properly understood, do not condemn people who are homosexual,” Rogers writes in a stirring conclusion that is sure to provoke debate.

Soulforce booklet on James Dobson
A False Focus on My Family:
(a booklet that you can download and print, or buy )
        Why every person of faith should be deeply troubled by Dr. James Dobson’s dangerous and misleading words about the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community.
        Christian Conservatives pretend that their negative view of homosexuality is the only Christian view.  But it isn’t.  On Sept., 11, 2006, many church leaders gathered in Dallas, Texas and issued the following official statement:STATEMENT BY BISHOPS AND ELDERS COUNCIL

 

“On September 11, 2001, some leading Christian extremists portrayed the tragedy of 9/11 as God’s judgment on America for the presence of gays and lesbians. The intervening years have witnessed an alarming escalation of religion-based, anti-gay attacks by both political leaders and religious groups.
“Today, on the fifth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, we, as leaders representing organizations that touch the lives of 98 million Americans, are united in our rejection of all forms of fear-based religion, all political manipulation in the name of Jesus, and governmental hostility toward gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender persons, especially that hostility that uses Christianity as an excuse to divide society and demonize minorities.
“Today, as Christian leaders who have gathered in Council in Dallas, Texas, we proclaim that discrimination, rejection, scapegoating, and oppression of gay people and their families are incompatible with the Christian ethic of love – and are not spiritual, democratic, patriotic, or fair.
“Today, we announce that the anti-gay agenda against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender is effectively over. Thanks to a rapidly growing movement of churches and faith leaders in communities across the United States, thousands of churches now embrace Jesus’ message that “whosoever will may come,” and open their doors in welcome to same-gender-loving people of faith. Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Christians, along with their families and allies, now have the option of nurturing their spiritual lives in faith communities that celebrate and welcome all of God’s creation.
“Motivated by our Christian faith and to further our nation’s founding goals of justice and equality for all, we call upon all people of goodwill to work actively for an end to discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender persons by:

 

 

 

 

  • “Realizing that the relationships of same-gender loving couples are equal in every way to heterosexual couples and are worthy of both the right to civil marriage and the rites of Christian marriage;
  • “Reaffirming the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender persons to full equality under the law, including adoption rights, employment and housing protections, and the right to openly serve in the U.S. military;
  • “Refusing to cooperate with or support political or religious leaders who caricature and condemn the lives of gays and lesbians;
  • “Refuting the ex-gay notion that sexual orientation and gender identity can and should be changed.

 

 

 

 

“As unified followers of Christ, reclaiming our faith, we commit to speak boldly with our own communities and the larger culture from out of our experience as those who have been both oppressed and oppressor. We will communicate God’s incessant call for justice, wholeness and peace and work to equip ourselves and others to take concrete action to achieve God’s loving shalom.

“The Bishops and Elders Council further commits to continued work on behalf of all people oppressed or marginalized by poverty, immigration policies, HIV/AIDS, addictions, classism, sexism, ageism, or violence.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The conference was co-chaired by the Rev. Dr. Nancy Wilson, Moderator, Metropolitan Community Churches, Bishop Yvette Flunder, The Fellowship, and Rebecca Voelkel, Program Director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources.
Besides Soulforce, the Fellowship, and MCC organizations present included GLBT and allied Christians from DignityUSA (Roman Catholic), More Light Presbyterians, That All May Freely Serve (Presbyterians), United Church of Christ Coalition for LGBT Concerns, Lutherans Concerned, Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Brethren Mennonite Council for LGBT Interests, National Baptist Conference of Welcoming and Affirming Churches, Reconciling Ministries Network (United Methodist Church), the Evangelical Network, the Intern-Denominational Conference of Liberation Congregations & Ministries, Reformed Catholic Church, Universal Anglican Church, National Black Justice Coalition, Room for All, The Fellowship, and HRC’s new Religion and Faith Program, and the National Religious Leaders Roundtable of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.”
        I am constantly amazed by the inability of most religious people who object to gay marriage to grasp the concept of a word like “marriage” having more than ONE “definition”. Have they never looked up a word in the dictionary and found that it could have several different meanings, depending on the intention of the user? My Heritage Dictionary, for example, offers 13 different definitions for the noun “bar”.
        As used in America today, is it too much to ask that people understand that the word “marriage” doesn’t have to mean “the sacrament of Holy Matrimony performed for a man and a woman who meet the standards of eligibility by a priest who has been ordained by a bishop who can trace his roots to Jesus through one of the original bishops”? (That’s what it takes to be truly “married” in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church. Other churches have their own “definitions” of marriage).
        Ever since the stranglehold of the Church over the State has been broken, however, the “State” has had a different, more liberal “definition” for marriage. As a Liberal Christian clergyman (of French extraction) , I say, “Vive la difference!” Let the churches all have and enforce their own definitions of “marriage” on all of those who willingly embrace their particular faith. But let the churches mind their own business and let the state define the “marriage” that it deals with in its civil laws, as it sees fit, according to its own Constitutions and the laws passed by the representatives of the people, as dictated by science and reason, not by Leviticus, or even Paul of Tarsus.
        As for “Defense Of Marriage” Acts, “DOMA”s, I predict that the effort by Conservative states to define “marriage” as a “union between one man and one woman” will backfire. Probably sooner rather than later, the courts (and/or legislatures) will declare it unfair and unjust for the government to be giving special privileges to some couples, just because one is a male and one a female, and not to other citizens, and the privileges of civil marriage will ALL be removed, (or they will be extended to all citizens who wish to marry, regardless of gender.)
        P.S.:  Gay people aren’t asking for any of the privileges afforded by religious marriage, whatever they may be. All they are asking for are the privileges and rights and obligations afforded by the civil government through what that government calls “marriage”, like the right to visit one’s spouse in the hospital, make decisions for one’s spouse when need be, raise children with them if so desired, share pensions rights and health insurance, and finally inherit property that was accumulated together. None of this has anything to do with “the Sacrament of Holy matrimony”, and allowing gays to have such rights won’t endanger what churches call “marriage” one bit.


        I am constantly amazed by the inability of most religious people who object to gay marriage to grasp the concept of a word like “marriage” having more than ONE “definition”. Have they never looked up a word in the dictionary and found that it could have several different meanings, depending on the intention of the user? My Heritage Dictionary, for example, offers 13 different definitions for the noun “bar”.
        As used in America today, is it too much to ask that people understand that the word “marriage” doesn’t have to mean “the sacrament of Holy Matrimony performed for a man and a woman who meet the standards of eligibility by a priest who has been ordained by a bishop who can trace his roots to Jesus through one of the original bishops”? (That’s what it takes to be truly “married” in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church. Other churches have their own “definitions” of marriage).
        Ever since the stranglehold of the Church over the State has been broken, however, the “State” has had a different, more liberal “definition” for marriage. As a Liberal Christian clergyman (of French extraction) , I say, “Vive la difference!” Let the churches all have and enforce their own definitions of “marriage” on all of those who willingly embrace their particular faith. But let the churches mind their own business and let the state define the “marriage” that it deals with in its civil laws, as it sees fit, according to its own Constitutions and the laws passed by the representatives of the people, as dictated by science and reason, not by Leviticus, or even Paul of Tarsus.
        As for “Defense Of Marriage” Acts, “DOMA”s, I predict that the effort by Conservative states to define “marriage” as a “union between one man and one woman” will backfire. Probably sooner rather than later, the courts (and/or legislatures) will declare it unfair and unjust for the government to be giving special privileges to some couples, just because one is a male and one a female, and not to other citizens, and the privileges of civil marriage will ALL be removed, (or they will be extended to all citizens who wish to marry, regardless of gender.)
        P.S.:  Gay people aren’t asking for any of the privileges afforded by religious marriage, whatever they may be. All they are asking for are the privileges and rights and obligations afforded by the civil government through what that government calls “marriage”, like the right to visit one’s spouse in the hospital, make decisions for one’s spouse when need be, raise children with them if so desired, share pensions rights and health insurance, and finally inherit property that was accumulated together. None of this has anything to do with “the Sacrament of Holy matrimony”, and allowing gays to have such rights won’t endanger what churches call “marriage” one bit.
 
 
 

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

        Shortly after the terrible hurricane killed thousands of poor people in New Orleans, Louisiana, a Christian Conservative web site (repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html) posted an article proclaiming that

 

Hurricane Katrina Destroys New Orleans
Days Before “Southern Decadence”
  (8/31/05)
        “Just days before ‘Southern Decadence’, an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of New Orleans, Hurricane Katrina destroys the city.
        ‘Southern Decadence’ has a history of filling the French Quarters section of the city with drunken homosexuals engaging in sex acts in the public streets and bars. . .”
        Such deplorable “theology” reminds me about the joke of the golfing clergyman.  If you want to use the joke, just give it some flesh, but it boils down to this: A clergyman is golfing with some members of his congregation and when he misses strokes at the 6th, then the 14th, he lets loose with some profanity, apologizing each time. When he falls from grace once again on the last hole, a bolt of lighting comes out of the blue and strikes the laymen dead. At which, a distressed voice from the heavens complains “Damn it, missed again!
        What a dud God is, if he intended to punish degenerate gays, and scheduled Hurricane Katrina the week before the sinners were in town !
 
 
 
 

 

  

 

  

 

 

 

 

        Though not as abrasive as Rev. Phelps, a number of other “Conservative” Christian leaders in America have been getting more and more intolerant of gays in recent years, not just in their own churches, but in the public square as well.  They have been vociferous in their objections to gays being allowed to serve openly in the military, against gays being protected from discrimination in housing and employment, against gays being allowed to parent children in need of adoption, against gays being allowed to marry those with whom they plan to spend the rest of their lives, against gays being given any measure of legal protection through civil rights legislation, as well as being against gays having leadership roles in the church or in other organizations in which they serve.  Lurking behind much of this “frenzy” is the idea that homosexuality and the Bible are incompatible.
        “We reject [homosexuals], treat them as pariahs, and push them outside our church communities, and thereby we negate the consequences of their baptism and ours.  We make them doubt that they are the children of God, and this must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy.  We blame them for something that is becoming increasingly clear they can do little about. “
        In a Massachusetts survey of high school homosexuals recently, 40% reported they had attempted suicide.  Now this percentage obviously doesn’t include those who succeeded.  And if the figure is this high in one of the country’s most progressive states, just imagine what it is like in the much more regressive states.
        One need not be homosexual, however to wonder why so-called “Christians” are concentrating so much of their energy condemning this one sin (if indeed it is a sin).  If Christian Conservatives paid more attention to the Christ they claim to believe in, then they would be concerned about many other things.  Most notably, Jesus objected to a heterosexual sin called “divorce” far more strenuously than he objected to homosexuality (which he never even mentioned).  So why aren’t so-called Christian Conservatives hunting down and rounding up all of the perpetrators of divorce in America these days?  Why, indeed, are they going out of their way to endorse the candidacy of as many divorced Republicans as they can find?  Divorce practically seems to be a requirement these days for a leadership position in the Republican Party.  According to Christ’s teaching, Senator Strom Thurmond and Congressman Bob Barr, are now living in their third full-time adulterous relationship, since divorcing their first and only true wives years ago.  Rush Limbaugh and Representatives Guy Millner and Newt Gingrich are living full-time in their second publicly known adulterous relationships.  How and why were “Christian Conservatives” able to reject the most pious Christian President America ever had, Jimmy Carter, in order to embrace a known adulterer and divorced Hollywood actor, Ronald Reagan, who hardly ever bothered to go to a church, unless it was a political event?  Isn’t it amazing how “liberal” Christian Conservatives can be when it comes to Republican Senators and Presidential Candidates like Bob Dole, Liddy Dole and John McCain, who have abandoned their true wives and children and, according to the teaching of Jesus, have made them adulteresses.

Divorce rates among various religious groups:

     The Christian Evangelical “Barna Group” which does polling and research on issues of interest to the religious community found in 2004 that, “Among married born again Christians, 35% have experienced a divorce.  That figure is identical to the outcome among married adults who are not born again: 35%. “And those divorces generally did not occur before they became born-again Christians, but after.”
        Barna research carried out in 1999, 2001, and 2004 found the divorce rates among the various groups to be :

Pentecostals: 44%
Jews: 30%
Baptists: 29%
Presbyterians: 28%
Episcopalians: 28%
Methodists: 26%
Catholics: =”25%”
Mormons: 24%
Lutherans: 21%
Atheists : 21%
Agnostics : 21%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

        The media (which Conservatives laughingly call “liberal”) and the Republican Party have conspired to paint the Democratic party as the less moral of the two major parties.  But the fact is that only a third as many scandals are known about Democrats in high office as there are about Republicans.  See http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/about/blindleaders.html about hypocritical Conservative religious leaders
, and http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/about/gopcorruption.html about hypocritical Republican politicians.        Now, divorce was far from Jesus’ greatest concern.  But, isn’t it hypocritical for Conservatives to attack homosexuality in Jesus’ name, while ignoring divorce.  Jesus never said a bad word about homosexuality, but he did condemn divorce
        Several denominations in America today are questioning whether homosexuals can be authentic preachers of the Gospel.  But what concerned Jesus most, what he spoke and preached about most, was the need to divorce oneself from selfishness and to love and to share one’s good fortune with those less fortunate than oneself.  Is there any denomination questioning whether materialists can be authentic preachers of the Gospel?  How many clergy would there be to head the Christian congregations in America, if denominations removed those who do not believe and preach what Jesus preached about the necessity to give one’s excess wealth (not just one’s second shirt) to the poor?   Why shouldn’t that be the question denominations ask, instead of whether clergypersons are gay themselves, or would perform gay marriage ceremonies for those who are?  Click here to review  what Christ considered
his most important teaching.

or click here to find out
why Conservative Christians PREFER
Paul of Tarsus   to   Jesus of Nazareth !


        If you are a Christian homosexual who expects the way homosexuals are being treated by most denominations today to change, then I urge you to join in promoting the essence of the Gospels: Christ’s demands that we love and help those less fortunate than ourselves.  “Christians” will only treat you fairly, when they treat everyone, the poor, the needy, the imprisoned, the immigrant, and all needy people with the justice and compassion that the bible demands !  And now, if you haven’t already done so, be sure to check out the accompanying web page:
a challenge Gays need to address to Christian harassers,Here are additional resources:

  • http://whosoever.org/bible/ Whosoever.org 
  • ChristianGays.com 
  • Religion and Gays.org
  • the TRUTH about the ‘ex – gay’ movement
  • The TRUTH about “the Gay Agenda”If you are a Catholic GLBT or ally, then be sure to
    check out our Catholic Church vs Gays site.

  •         Fred Phelps isn’t the only “Christian” preacher who is promoting the idea that “God hates fags”.
    Donnie Davies is another. http://www.eveningservice.com/Video features him singing his “God hates fags”. song.
    How Do You Know
    That You Are “Normal”?

            Were you born “normal”, as either a boy or a girl with all the right sex organs in the right place and with the “normal” sex drives?  Are you sure?  Many people who think so are wrong, and may never know it.  Most of us assume that every baby born is either a boy or a girl; but that is simply not the case.

     

     

     

     

            About one in 45,000 children are born without a clearly identifiable gender.  Doctors, patients and parents are faced with huge dilemmas when they have to make the choice – boy or girl.  Rae Fry asks at what stage in the child’s life should the choice be made?  And does the choice have to be made at all?. . .
            Sex differences occur on a number of independent dimensions.  Genetic sex, or the organization of the “sex chromosomes,” is often thought to indicate the true sex, with males having one X and one Y, while females have two Xs.  However, about one in 400 people are neither XX nor XY, but have less common combinations, such as XO (a single X), XXY, or even different combinations in different cells within the same individual, for instance some cells XX and some cells XY.  During gestation (pregnancy), the sex chromosomes determine the differentiation of the gonads, usually into ovaries or testes, but sometimes into ovo-testes (combining ovarian and testicular cells), and occasionally the gonads are absent.  For the first six weeks, all fetuses have essentially female genitals.  Testosterone produced by fetal testes causes the clitoris to grow to form a penis, the inner labia to wrap around the penis to create the penile urethra, and the outer labia to fuse to create a scrotal sac.  The process may not complete, resulting in genitals which may look nearly female, but with a large clitoris; nearly male, with a small penis and perhaps with the urethral meatus (urinary aperture) along the bottom rather than at the tip of the penis; or they may be truly “right in the middle” ambiguous genitals, with a structure that might be considered either a large clitoris or a small penis, surrounded with what might be a split, empty scrotum, or outer labia, and with a small vaginal pouch that opens into the urethra rather than into the perineum.  Because different hormonal systems control the differentiation of the genitals and of the internal reproductive organs, some individuals are born with nearly male genitals outside, and a uterus, tubes, and ovaries inside.  Some are born with female genitals outside and undescended testes inside. . .
            At the core of the debate is surgery on babies and very young children.  For decades, this has been conventional medical practice for children born with sexual organs that are in between male and female.  It sounds barbaric, and patient groups and some surgeons are calling for the practice to be stopped.  They say surgery should be delayed until the child is old enough to consent.  But surgery or no surgery is not the only issue.  Intersex conditions include a wide variety of internal and external, genetic and hormonal characteristics.  Many aren’t visible at birth.  And every individual affected is unique.

     

    http://www.kindredspiritlakeside.homestead.com/Intersexuality.html
            How many people would continue to deny that people are born homosexual if they had any idea how ambiguous the whole issue of sexuality really is and how tenuous their own sexuality is?  We would call in the white coats to cart off anybody who claimed that people choose to be hermaphodites.  Yet we take people seriously when they claim that people choose to be homosexual !

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    2006 survey* of Conservative Orthodox Jews finds
    Large majority favors gay and lesbian rabbis and cantors:

  • Rabbis are largely in favor (65% in favor to 28% opposed, with others unsure), as are the cantors by a similar margin (67% to 27%), while lay leaders split 68% to 22%.
  • JTS students also favor admitting gay and lesbian rabbinical students: (58% to 32% for the rabbinical students; 58% to 21% for the cantorial students, and 70% to 21% for all other JTS students.
  • Among Conservative educators, executive directors, and other professionals are in favor (76% to 16%), while lay leaders split 68% to 22%, and students, USY and others (largely public access respondents) divide 70% to 20%. Substantial variation by country, gender, age, and observance. Support for gay ordination is:
  • Higher in the United States than Canada, Israel, or elsewhere in the world.
  • Higher among women than among men.
  • Higher among younger people than among older people (among those twenty-five and over).
  • Higher among the less observant than among the more observant. Gender Gap:
  • Men divide on the issue of gay rabbis and cantors 60% in favor to 33% opposed.
  • Women are more heavily pro-acceptance, by a margin of 86% to 10%.        * survey “conducted by Professor Steven M. Cohen, commissioned by The Jewish Theological Seminary (JTS) in cooperation with the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (USCJ) and the Rabbinical Assembly (RA) to understand the thinking of key constituents in the Conservative Movement on the issue of gay and lesbian ordination.” JTS survey report.

            The obsession that Conservatives have over homosexuality is hilarious. The following is from http://www.conservapedia.com (/Special:Statistics) as of 11 / 22 / 07 :User statistics There are 15,527 registered users, of which 27 (or 0.17%) are Administrators. Most viewed pages 1. Main Page? [1,927,497] 2. Homosexuality? [1,622,127] 3. Homosexuality and Hepatitis? [517,905] 4. Homosexuality and Promiscuity? [421,912] 5. Homosexuality and Parasites? [414,580] 6. Gay Bowel Syndrome? [399,761] 7. Homosexual Couples and Domestic Violence? [373,787] 8. Homosexuality and Gonorrhea? [332,018] 9. Homosexuality and Anal Cancer? [294,148] 10. Homosexuality and Mental Health? [293,324]
  •  

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Contact  
    email image
    Ray@LiberalsLikeChrist.Org


    There is much more where this came from at
    Liberals Like Christ
    See why you may already be one of us !

    61 Responses to “Does GOD “Hate Fags”?”

    1. kathy (kayms91) said

      2 Responses to “Does GOD “Hate Fags”?”
      Rev. Ray Dubuque Says:
      November 28, 2008 at Friday, November 28, 2008
      Kathy,
      Rather than my coming here to post things to be viewed by a hand full of people, why don’t you join the thousands of people who have viewed my the many pages of my web site 625,411 times so far this year? you might start by studying my http://LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/testimonials.html page and trying to understand why OTHER people are so enthused about something you view with such contempt.

      kathy (kayms91) Says:
      November 29, 2008 at Saturday, November 29, 2008
      Rev Ray… I wanted to post on your site but I couldn’t find a place to do so… do you have a comment / debate page? I think it would be a great addition to your site and if you truly believe you are doing God’s will then it would be an additional opportunity to help people to understand your positions particularly those like myself who don’t believe you are doing God’s will. I know you will definitely receive ‘contemptuous’ posts but your many supporters, I’m sure, will be glad to come to your aid which will make for great debating and probably more visitors to your site. Contempt is a harsh word for me…but I do strongly disagree with your views and would love to debate with you and others on these topics.

    2. Soul Force is a wonderful organization, run by the Rev. Mel White. Here is a link to a page that talks about what the Bible does and doesn’t say about homosexuality. It’s a very well-written booklet with lots of great info!

      http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

    3. Lawman2 said

      hey there bittenbyazebra!i don’t think kay will visit the site.tothewire did,and now i guess she is buying the book…go figure

    4. acaiberry said

      HOlla
      Whatsup people?
      I have a question thats been bugging me for a while.. What is acai berry?
      I keep seeing commercials on tv and advertisements on the internet so im finally starting to get curious.
      I guess its some fruit that is very healthy for you and your skin?
      I wouldnt mind losing some weight so i kinda want to buy acai berry .. so if any
      of you know any good places that would be awesome!
      I also saw it was featured on OPRAH so maybe there is some truth to this lol.

    5. obama the antichrist said

      God doesnt hate homosexuals he hates the sin God loves all of us hence jesus and no one person is above another

      i just love the saying love the sinner hate the sin

    6. Ron Graham said

      There’s a ton of stuff here to dig through. But I wanna tell you guys that I attend a conservative evangelical Christian church, which I would love, were it not for the people who at every opportunity have something to say about their conservatism.

      Consider the men’s prayer breakfast, where the assistant pastor begins:

      O Lord, I pray that you will bless President Obama, even though I don’t agree with his policies. Perhaps you can work on him…

      And this allows other conservative nutters – people would be otherwise well-meaning Christian people – to jump in:

      Lord, I too pray for President Obama, and ask that You will help him to adopt policies for You. For he is not working in Your best interest, and may not even know You.

      When I hear this stuff, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. Involvement in politics, which should be reasonable service, has corrupted the Church in many places. Folks like you may help us restore some… I dunno, “reason?” Maybe “sense of moral purpose?”

    7. Lawman2 said

      hey there ron! found a site of yours here as well http://thenewstartmeup.wordpress.com/ i like it the best,but haven’t really explored the other http://www.designnotes.com/companion/ i will though.

      anyway,welcome to our little blog!

    8. lauderforbes said

      Good job on this blog. Homosexuals should be treated with compassion, yet, we cannot reject that sodomy is a sin. The bible is very clear about the practice of homosexuality.

      ” Do not practice homosexuality, it is a detestable sin”
      Leviticus 18:22.

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    10. Bearmon said

      @lauderforbes,

      Well… No.

      LB: (Living Bible): “Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin”

      NLT: (New Living Translation): “Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.”

      The LB and NLT translations use the term “homosexuality” That is unusually deceptive for three reasons:

      * The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts. By using the word “homosexuality,” the English translation appears to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.
      * The term “homosexuality” has two distinct meanings in English. Sometimes it refers to sexual behavior (what some people do). Sometimes it relates to sexual orientation (what some people are). One reader might conclude from an English translation that homosexual orientation is criticized in the Bible; others might assume that homosexual behavior is criticized.
      * The word “homosexual” was first used in the very late in 19th century CE. There was no Hebrew word that meant “homosexual.” Thus, whenever the word is seen in an English translation of the Bible, one should be wary that the translators might be inserting their own prejudices into the text.

      Therefore, some English translations of this passage condemn both gay and lesbian sexual relationships. This is a mistranslation. It refers only to male-male sexual behavior.

      # This passage does not refer to gay sex generally, but only to a specific form of homosexual prostitution in Pagan temples. Much of Leviticus deals with the Holiness Code which outlined ways in which the ancient Hebrews were to be set apart to God. Some fertility worship practices found in nearly Pagan cultures were specifically prohibited; ritual same-sex behavior in Pagan temples was one such practice

      See ? Also accord to your Cross avatar:

      4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

      Hope it helps. :)

    11. Good post Bearmon right on the money on that one. I would also like to point out that the English Translation of the bible actually has a lot of flaws the whole “lost in translation” thing is a bust because things were actually taken out of the original Hebrew or truncated. The first recognized English translation called the King James Version, which is the standard of which all the newer translations in English are written. Was made for a vain, prejudiced, racist, and womanizing King of England. There are many homages to King James in the original King James Version Translations. And by truncated I mean changed drastically. There are things in the different books of the Torah and Talmud that is actually several chapters and passages longer. I am currently studying the Hebrew Scripture in the original form, under the guidance of a Rabbi, and I am comparing my notes and translation to The OKJV NKJV LB and the NLT. All translations that have the highest sales and output currently. My notes that have been verified accurate by a Rabbi and another person fluent in Hebrew, are very much different from the English translations. I have only studied up to the middle of Exodus so far. Very interesting stuff.

    12. Bearmon said

      @enkilleridos,

      Thank you. :)

    13. kay~ms said

      So, EE, you don’t think that God was instrumental in the outcome of the Holy Bible that we have today? If you believe in God, and all of His capabilities, why do you think that He allowed the “errors” in the Bible?

      My theory, is that the Bible is just as He wants it to be. That if someone WANTS to reject His word and messages, they will be able to find the “justifications” to do so. I believe it all comes down to what is in our hearts, and the Bible, just as it is written, is a perfect device for revealing what is in our hearts.

      Bottom line… Do we love God and therefore want to do His will above all else?

    14. Gal Qaeda said

      KKK, you don’t love god, you love baal keller.

      I have a question for you “Special K”.

      Unfortunately, i can’t send you the link because baal said he was going to archive all of his tv shows on his site by last august but he didn’t. typical.

      on one show, baal keller said that he could prove homosexual marriage was wrong without the bible. His argument, 2 men can’t make babies and 2 women can’t make babies.

      guess who else can’t seem to make babies? baal keller and his wife, nan.

      wazzup with that? one could have a “high-tech cyber debate”. does that make them homos.? just my opinion.
      and if you have a problem with me bringing up baal’s wife.

      someone called in one night and asked why he didn’t have children and he said something like he & his wife decided not to. Whatever happened to “go forth, be fruitful and multiply.”? does be fruitful mean be gay and multiply to do math equations? then he said he had 2.4 million children that read his word everyday. as if.

    15. I really liked your blog! I have to say it is hard to come by blogs with great information like yours. It is definitely bookmark worthy! Thanks for putting it together. Peace!

    16. John Mathis said

      The struggle of moral absolutes and our current society. I would like to talk freely, the only agenda I have to push is that of truth and purity. I know that in God’s eyes that purity and a love for truth is a “fruit” that results from our relationship with him. In our society matters of Dogmatic tradition and ties to a “law based system” has left a sour taste in many’s mouth. The good news is that we are no longer placed beneath the strict stipulations of moses’ initial law that was important but not permanent. We are a people placed under a new covenant of grace that brings about the moral change that every person so longs for. In light of this, a delimma has arraived in our culture, a battling system of secular, religious, and new covenant ideoligies all wish to coexist. Is this coexistance possible, “opra-style?” How does one still admire purity and wish to embrace righeousness, when others see certain issues of purity to be a “threat” to their acceptance of what is the divinely acceptable. In other words, What is pure in gods eyes is being interpreted as failable by others. Sin is clearly stated as sin, many of these sins are presented as sin under the old covenant law. A life through christ under the new testament is feedom from the law; however, a life through christ makes all things new in ones spiritual persona. This newness brought about through crist has been wattered down by many as a “cliche” concept, but when it really occurs, changes happens in ones life: new motivations araise, new senses of purpose and identy come forth, desires and emotions are placed within their proper perspective, and the “new creation’s” agenda is in one accord with the holy spirit, who they have learned to relate and communicate with. All of this talk about newness is a great thing, and it brings to light something important: No we are not under the “law,” yet the law still has a sacred function. The law exposes sin and human inability, so that we will acknowledge sin as evil (anything that doesn’t reside in the heart of God) and turn to the “personal” aspects of Christ and the holy spirit to overcome. By using the new testament model, and personally becoming “one” in spirit with christ, the requirements of the Law will be fulfilled. So, the grace of christ under the new testament does not redifine sin as being acceptable, or nullify the acuracy of the old covenant judgements on sin. Paul even stated in his new testament letters (paraphrase) should I sin so that grace abounds, surely not. The new testament simply changes the objective of christianity to one of relationship, and freedom from sin is a wonderfull sideaffect. In light of all of this, the matter of covenential approach does apply to homosexuality. In all of my college English classes we have learned much about New-Literary methods of Interpretation. It is a latter 20th century method that has filtered into our society, and has greatly affected the interpretation of our constitution and the Bible. Basically, it allows one to assign a meaning to any document by analyzing its elements in any manner desired. “Original intent” of the document analyzed can be and is often disregarded. It is a great secular tool that is used to make any form of written standard subject for interpretation. Presupositions from this analytical sytem, naturalism, realism, and others have enabled “Christians” to compromise the obvious line that divides right and wrong. “God is love” and “the law isn’t applicable” are phrases that are true in one sense, but they are being used to recreate a system of homosexual Christianity that isn’t inspired or filled with the annointing of Christ. So what are the answers to the problem of Homosexuality? Should the scriptures be reinterpreted so that those in sin wont be left behind? I say that no sinner is beyond the reach of Christ. Homosexual’s don’t need to be spoon fed the old covenant untill theyre sick and full of shame, nor do they need to be kept in the absence of righteousness. They simply need the love of christ, and a reality of his presence that will lead them into the truth regarding the matter. Deception usually doesn’t hold volunteers captive. When one is decieved, he doesn’t know it. A system of compromise and reinterpretation that is far from God’s “original-intent” is fuel for deception, and in no way should be embraced by spiritual fathers. But “no one is perfect” don’t throw the “Baby out with the bathwater”, all has been spoken in defense of homosexual “love.” Love is a standard, not subject for rinterpretation. Corinthians tells us what love is, but it also tells us what it isn’t and what it “doesn’t.” In conclusion of all of this I would like to say a few things. I have been guilty of trying to surpress the homosexual agenda in the past by throwing law and shame at it. Corporately, I was not acting along. I believe that this approach to the problem has caused a “sub-society” of people who feel rejected and in need of defense. I do not wish to continue in this manner, nor do I wish to make gods “word” what I think it should be for the sake of sin justification. Overall, my standards are only where they need to be when they are the same as God’s standards that never change. I will pray and seek to love those who are confused, in homosexuality, and others who are without the spirit of God. Without bitterness in my heart, I will seek never to compromise the truths that god clearly presents before us. The only help that will bring freedom to the homosexual community is help that points to a non-cliche relationship with christ and the interaction with the holy spirit. That will take a true spirit led faith that goes beyond the conventions of traditional christianity.

    17. James said

      Whether one is an evolutionist or a creationist, natural selection remains as an inarguable fact- A+B=C. If one drives recklessly, then he or she presents a greater risk of self-inflicted injury. If one feeds the bears, then one may become bear food. I favor natural selection. It weeds out the weak, the defective, and the unfit. Abolish speed limits and let the fools kill themselves. Remove signs to protect the stupid and let the stupid fall prey to their own devices. Leave homosexuals to their own practices. Maybe new homosexuals will develop, but at least the existing ones cannot, at least without enabling from others, create more queerlets in which to instill their deviant value system. For those who believe in sissified “civilization”, don’t be surprised by the bold and true men why arrive at your doorstep to crush you…

    18. james, arrive at my doorstep you “bold and true man” to crush me and i will eat you for lunch.

    19. dorian9 said

      james, i’m sure the existing homosexuals would leave your kind to spawn new menlets to welcome to their doorsteps.

      now re. the stupid: we can leave the signs up because it won’t make a difference.

    20. CystinePapule said

      james, yes, do come over: “Vi do un esame della prostata con il mio piede sinistro.” ;)

    21. Hors Service said

      Hi people on this subject!

      I’ve always been interested in understanding homophobia, which remains for me a complete mystery.

      For me, at the moment it’s a bit like hating the ones that prefer Chocolate Ice cream because you like Vanilla Ice Cream.^^ No hate nor love, I’m indifferent to homosexuals on the particular point of their homosexuality.

      Could opposants to homosexuality give me some arguments? I’m really interested in understanding their point of view.

      And no “it’s written in a Holy Book so it’s a sin” stuff^^ Be critical;)

    22. dorian said

      hors, you may be waiting for a long while if you take away the bible argument. many of those opposed to homosexuality use the bible scriptures to argue their point of view.
      it goes beyond preference (which is what it is to me), yes, like a choice between chocolate or vanilla. or the color blue to red.
      it’s a morality issue; thus religion is heavily involved. and then there are those who fear and hate anything that is different and outside of the norm and pass that inclination on to their progeny, sadly.

    23. Hors Service said

      Sad…

      All the gays I’ve met told me that this wasn’t even a choice… I mean, you can choose to kill or not, to have sex or not, to watch porn or not, but they told me that if they would have had the choice, they would be heterosexuals.

      I really don’t see why, if God existed, He would make some people homosexual, and then tell them it’s a sin, therefor dedicating them to a loveless life. I’m perhaps wrong here?

      In fact i’m really perplex^^

    24. dorian said

      well, the God i believe in is the same one that says that everyone is equal and has freedom of choice and free will. because of this good and benevolent God idea that i have, i’m considered a heretic and a sinner. does that make sense? i thought there was only one God but there seems to be another version, one who is vengeful and angry. i think he comes to this blog sometimes!!

    25. Hors Service said

      You said:
      “does that make sense?”

      Seems that The Lord really works in Mysterious Ways, then^^

      It’s the Standard Answering Sentence For Annoying Questions of zealots of any religion, so it’s an adapted anwser^^

    26. You can play games with Scripture if you want, but like bestiality and adultry, homosexuality has a sentence of death:

      Leviticus 20:13 If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

      I am not saying I am not a sinner and have not violated most of the 613 laws, but I do not buy the argument that it is not sin AND I do not buy the argument that one sin is better or worse than another.

      God hates sin. Whether a church-going homosexual does it or a flaming heterosexual does it, fornication, adultry, or bestiality are violations of the Law of God.

    27. But only violations for the Jewish people:that’s who God made the covenant with wasn’t it? All those laws are specifically tailored for that group of people at that particular time in that particular place. Everyone else, Christian or not, must make their own accommodations.
      Having had a look at Leviticus, those Israelites seem to have been totally out of control, constantly trying to catch each other naked, pimping their daughters and so on, shagging animals etc etc:
      So I can only infer that God doesn’t concern himself with everyone else’s sins.
      Has he appeared to anyone apart from the Israelites to make a covenant and lay down hundreds of laws? No.Good job too.Although looking at some of the stuff in my spam folder it can’t be long.

    28. The Bible is a wonderful book, Betty. You should read it sometime.

      Noah was a gentile and he had seven laws given to him in chapter nine of Genesis. There is specific mention of foreigners as well in Mosaic Law.

      This issue was discussed specifically between Peter and Paul. They came to Jacobus (AKA:James) to resolve the issue and write the general doctrine for gentiles in a letter. That letter is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles.

    29. Hors Service said

      @John

      The Old testiment is regarless rather focused on the Jewish, and their history… The historical period was propice to that: agressive and powerfull neighbours, slavery, foreign gods… They needed a bit of nationalistic pride.

      It concerns foreigners, too, of course, but the idea of God really made a start outside the Jewish community after Jesus, who was more explicitely universal.
      I think this is what Betty mean.
      /

      Anyway, intersting stuff:
      http://djou-bd.over-blog.com/article-31393970.html (french)

      French homosexual blogist.

      Anyway, the Bible has been written by man, and by consequence I think one must interprete it, isn’t it? Yes, it’s clear that man-man relations are prohibed, but it’s something that could have been added later on, or disformed from the original version…

    30. Name who you think was a gentile among the Apostles other than Luke?

    31. Bearmon said

      You guys dont understand anything…

      For example, many Christians don’t know that:

      * Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
      * The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
      * Only six or seven of the Bible’s one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way — and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it’s understood today.

      Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom — and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham doesn’t mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

      Listen to what Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: “This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God’s eyes.”

      Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn’t take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

      But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing.

      The sexual act that occurs in the story of Sodom is a gang rape — and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone. That’s why I believe the story of Sodom says a lot about God’s will for each of us, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

      Leviticus 18:6 reads: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination.” A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: “A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed.” On the surface, these words could leave you feeling rather uneasy, especially if you are gay. But just below the surface is the deeper truth about God — and it has nothing to do with sex.

      Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)

      *SIGHING*

    32. Hors Service said

      ?

      It’s a question to me?

      What does it have to do with the debate?

      I’m perplexed

    33. Yes you are perplexed. I am afraid there is no cure:

      Unfortunately, my video version of this was blocked…

    34. Hors Service said

      @Bearmon

      I think I’m maybe out of the “guys” you’re refering to^^

      I agree with you, thanks for the nice precisions.
      Leviticus’ laws must be interpreted, as should be the Bible, to me.

    35. Thanks Bearmon. Case closed.

    36. “It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)”

      DANG I am kosher…

    37. What’s interesting to me is that there are those like Sen. Larry Craig who spend their whole careers running their mouths against homosexuality and then end up in an airport stall engaged in the very thing they supposedly think is immoral. I guess the Devil made him do it… What a hypocrite.

    38. Bearmon said

      @Coldwarning.

      It has nothing to do with Devil.

    39. Hors Service said

      Hey I found a funny video on the subject, I thought that I should share^^

    40. infamouslyurs said

      Tell me now! Why did God come down and destroy Sodom – take the term Sodom = Sodomy – Sodomize – man taking man, woman taking woman and God never intended that in the first place. Beauty increasing and filthy acts as well – God Made Adam and took a part from him to create Eve “NOT STEVE” Male and Female created He them. When Eve was attracted by beauty (The devil’s weapon always)she caused a fall in humanity, she brought in death. Notice Now what happened further, The son’s of God taken unto them woman, not wives, but woman – legal prostitution attracted through the beauty (SATAN AGAIN). Come to the day of Noah and also to the day of Sodom and God regrets it that He made man – So he send a flood (Noah) and Fire Sodom(HOMOSEXUAL) the world and church mixed together. Trying to bring homosexuality into the church and trying to make the Word of God to none effect.

      John you said <<>

      You sound CATHOLIC = Nothing against it. But the sabbath wasn’t intended for anyday of the week. Remember taking you now to the OKJV Bible when the Lord when to the sick and healed the man on the “Sabbath” they said it is not lawful, they created their own Law when Jehovah Rapha stood before them. The Lord came and break the sabbath according to their man made law, back to the topic and to the story of homosexuals in the church. This is what is spoken of in Rev ch 17. The whore and the harlots trying to make the Word of God of none effect and bypassing the Through law of the bible. As it says in the book of Jude – lusting after strange flesh. Homosexuals coming to bring savours of incense make The Lord puke.

      Blind wretched and don’t know it. Rev 3 – What a pity on you. Judgment is at hand, it is later than you think.

    41. infamouslyurs said

      <>

      Meaning that God never intended it in the first place, so why is it here, because of filth, sin, seducing spirits, getting into the church. Wake Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Just the thought, makes me vomit. (PUKE)

    42. princessxxx said

      well, go ahead and vomit your brians out infamously, no one cares, especially god.

    43. obama the antichrist said

      i dont know if this was a comment before but love the sinner hate the sin. as christians we are called to love everyone but not to become apart of it. i love the gays they are fun people to be around, im not gay myself and dont plan on ever becoming gay but. dont hate people based on their sexual preference they are still people so come out from behind your anti-gay shield!

    44. princessxxx said

      oh obama the antichrist, you should read what infamouslyurs wrote that is in moderation.
      somebody is having a problem.
      you are right, most gay people are fun, but some are “stupid”.
      keep up the good work.

    45. obama the antichrist said

      infamouslyurs: “God regrets it that He made man” huh? where is your proof for that? he punished man by fire and brimstone and the great flood. but he promised to never flood the earth again. also he is merciful and spared ninevah. he also sent jesus to save us from our sin. does that sound like a regretful creator to you?

    46. dorian said

      guys, methinks we may have another troll visitor.

    47. If God hated man so much, He could have destroyed him^^
      Oh Dorian, you trashed his trolleries? I haven’t had the opportunity to read them… No problem, no doubt that a troll will come sooner or later…

    48. dorian said

      i think princess talking about comments#41 and 42 but let me check there might be more..

    49. dorian said

      ota, i love it when you speak good christian. yes, God loves all his interesting creatures, even the stinky trolls, and i’m sure he’s loving our blog too.

    50. default said

      How common.

      You take a much publicized slogan of a church and use it as a political weapon. Lies based on lies based on lies. The chain is so long these days most people never bother to look past the “popular sentiment”.

      I can understand how you must loathe substance, but let me give you an education; Fred Phelps, the head of the Westboro Baptist Church, AKA the “god hates fags” church, is not only a Democrat, but he is a failed Democrat politician having run for office several times.

      http://www.kssos.org/elections/98elec/98prifin.html
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_phelps#Democratic_Party
      http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1128/kansas-anti-gay-church-embarrasses-topekans

      The basis of liberalism is either in stereotypes and ignorance or an overt desire to cannibalize your fellow man.

    51. dorian said

      hello, default titaniumnet.com. thanks for dropping by. i’ts good that you realize the commonality here. this post merely showcases the stereotypes and ignorance that has been expressed overtly or covertly by those that claim to be serving the will of God though the bible.

      so pray tell, what is the basis of fundamentalism, in your opinion?

    52. obama the antichrist said

      Start like :39 and it ends 1:40

    53. obama the antichrist said

      i went to the website godhatesfags.com and read through some of their stuff and i am shocked…i feel sick…its not christianity its not human…satan doesnt want to associate with them…its sad…i feel they are doomed and need prayers and counseling and love…they are misguided and brainwashed. their claims are filled with ignorance and hate…i…i dont know what to do i am shocked and appalled and at a loss for words

    54. your all nothing but a bunch of jesus freak liberals. god doesnt hate anyone.

    55. dorian said

      i smell a troll

    56. Enkill_Eridos said

      Conservatives are not Liberals. The people who say God hates fags are Conservative Fundamentalists, which I only count one. And that one had her feelings hurt on huffington post so..yea..let’s go into a more why you think that way. Because I would like to point out that the God Hates Fags ideal comes from Conservative Fundamentalists (Which actually are primarily Republicans go figure) But I would like to have more dialog on this subject Mr. Wiuff

    57. Baby D said

      God dnt hate fags God loves every one so that’s a lie.

    58. John said

      Hi there, just became aware of your blog through Google, and found that it’s truly informative. I’m gonna watch out for brussels. I will be grateful if you continue this in future. A lot of people will be benefited from your writing. Cheers!

    59. acai berry said

      It’s difficult to find educated people on this subject, but you seem like you know what you’re talking about! Thanks

    60. Theo Oliver said

      It is as simple as the fact that people like to force their lifestyles onto others because their brains only stand for what they feel and think is right. None of us know God. We all see bits of him, but he is to magnificent to show himself to mankind when we are so small minded and attached to this silly world of symptoms. We need to ignore the symptoms and cure the disease. We need to teach children about the God of univeral unconditional love and tell them of all beliefs and religions, teach them to see all sides of the spectrum so we can all understand each others stances and be in peace. Ignorance will crush us. I hate it. I fear for my generation, I really do… let it be I say. They’ll keep being gay unless you teach them about God instead of forcing the agressive old testament taboos table down their throats. Well, no use. I’ll be wise, but ignorant assholes will always exist. What can the smart people do but band together like the ignorant ones? I mean, we know nothing more than them, they just supress their knowledge from fear. Damn idiots.

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