My Response to Rev. Ray Dubuque on abortion
Posted by kayms99 on December 5, 2008
By kayms99
Rev. Ray….
I’ve just read your argument for abortion http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/LLC_JavaMenu.htm and I don’t even know where to start. It seems that your main argument is that abortion is not clearly addressed as a sin in the Bible so therefor it must be ok, as is also your argument for homosexuality also being ok with God. Which right up front I want to state (even though I know you are aware) the commandment..” thou shall not kill”…it seems to be addressing the abortion issue pretty clearly to me ( as also Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality seems pretty clear too ). When an abortion is performed a beating heart is stopped. How can that not fit the definition of kill? And I would like to know your stance on late term abortions? Do you defend those also? Is it ok with you to stop a beating heart? And more importantly why do think this would be ok with God? If nothing else is clear, I would say that this is… the CONTEXT of God’s will! You yourself have denounced much of what was written about God in the old testament (the kind of God represented) so I hope you aren’t going to try to use that to argue this point. God is about love and peace, I know you don’t deny that. So how can you, in any way, think that He would be ok with the destruction of one of the greatest gifts he has given us? Your arguments are overwhelming and I believe that just might be your purpose. Because broken down individualy they don’t stand up to scrutiny AT ALL! Your reasoning, as I have stated before, is based on what the Bible DOESN’T say. And at the same time you dismiss much of what the Bible does say. AND…UNBELIEVABLY, you will still use some passages to support other points!!! Your hypocrisy here is more evident than that of the conservative Christians that you overwhelmingly like to point out more than anything else. In fact.. your entire liberal Christian stance… the basis of all of your writtings is on the “hypocrisy” of the conservative Christian. How are you not guilty of the same kind of hypocrisy by twisting and contorting the scriptures of the Bible… your literal ‘rewriting’ and “picking and choosing” so as to fit your liberal views ??? Rev. Ray, YOU don’t know what is in God’s mind either!! So how can you justify taking these steadfast stances?? It’s ok for you to decide what is God’s will but not others – the ones with a different view than yours??
Your argument that abortion is not directly addressed in the Bible works just as much against you as you might think it does for you… while it may be true (in your opinion) that Jesus is never quoted as directly condemning abortion… he never says it is ok either! The commandment ” thou shall not kill” IS a very good argument that abortion is NOT ok… it’s just a matter of common sense…again, abortion stops a beating heart! With that in mind, I do want to ask you again…how can you justify your stance that abortion is ok… to kill life… when there is no CLEAR evidence that it is ok… the ONLY point / argument that you have is the absence of statement that it isn’t (again in your opinion). With that kind of logic, there is then a wide array of things that are ‘ok’ and that is just not the case!!! Surely even the far left liberals will agree with that… Right? So…WHY are you taking the chance to wrong God instead of man? How are you ( a man of God) following the 1st and greatest commandment… to love God with all of your heart, mind and soul? Even going by your argument it is STILL more likely than not that God IS against abortion!!! If you truly loved him, you would not take the chance to hurt Him. To destroy life that He created. Rev. Ray, I have one more question for you… I can’t help but wonder what your motivation is for this “work” that you are doing…can you tell me? Are you serving God, man…or yourself?
A Different Kind of Blog 
Lawman2 said
hey kay can i add a picture to this?one that you would like of course….rev ray leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Lawman2 said
see even a caveman sees he is full of shit!
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Lawman2 said
now i am not saying i agree with your beliefs but i do agree he isn’t selling christianity…just some sub form of it
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kathy (kayms91) said
yes Lawman… that would be great… I too, think he is ‘selling’ something ….that he can’t answer my questions proves that he is not legit. By spewing out what people want to hear, these people will ‘reward’ you… many so called (tv) evangelists have figured that out and they are living very luxuriously as a result. By going to Rev Ray’s link on a previous post, it IS overwhelming to see how many people who are just absolutely thrilled with him for saying that it is ok to kill life not to mention the many other liberal things that the Bible says is wrong but he has ‘proven’ are ok.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Hey I still think the whole concept of sin is a man made delusion so you can be led by fear and ignorance.
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Lawman2 said
true e_e control by pushing fear of eternal damnation…lol
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Lawman2 said
but i think kay has some very valid points here and i like this post
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kathy (kayms91) said
EE… you, and I know there are many others like you, have chosen to believe that the “concept of sin is a man made delusion”… your view ( if I understand it correctly ) is that some control freak or freaks way back when made all of this up to torment people and control them… I can certainly understand where you (and others) are coming from… just like I can certainly understand how most women are pro choice because they don’t want men controlling their lives and bodies. One of my biggest gripes – one of the things I hate the most is the desires and attempts of others to control people… I despise it. As one women put it… ” I don’t want some sweaty overweight man sitting up on Capital Hill telling me what to do with my own body”. Kind of a twisted view but I can see where she is coming from. But I have to say that just because there are power hungry control freaks now and certainly all thru out history… I don’t understand how you can go from that to the idea that the concept of sin is a delusion… I’m not making the connection… just like Rev Ray and the basis for his entire argument for his ‘Christian’ liberal beliefs – the hypocrisy of the conservative Christian. Just because hypocrisy is evident in the conservative Christian ( and important to point out.. SOME conservative Christians ) that doesn’t automatically mean that liberal views are correct in Christianity!! Again, I don’t see how you go from one point to the other… And another comparison… an atheist that I debated with claimed that he refused to believe that we are God’s ‘experiment’ for his amusement. His paranoid control issue’s are clearly what is causing him to claim he is an atheist. Just because he has these issues that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that God doesn’t exist… the conclusion for him really is that he can’t accept that God is in control.
To think that sin is a conceptual delusion to me seems like you ( and many others) are also in denial about the reality of God’s control. The control freaks then and now certainly do exist but that is beside the point… and many incorrectly use their existance to support their views because they, themselves are ‘control freaks’ … pro choicers ( who say they don’t want to be controlled by men) , Rev Ray ( who says he doesn’t want to be controlled by conservatives) , atheists ( who say they don’t want to be controlled by religion) and people who deny the very existance of sin because they don’t want to be constrained in any way. Bottom line for all of these people… the most important thing to them is their freedom to do as they please and not be told what to do. Which is their choice to do… they are using the free will that God gave them. They just aren’t making the right choices from a Christian point of view, no matter how much they want to twist the truth, it won’t change a thing.
Just like I told the atheist… just because you don’t want to acknowledge that you are not in control… that won’t change the truth that you are NOT in control.
My opinion… to think that sin is a delusional concept is ludicrous… it’s wishful thinking… there is right and there is wrong… and the wrong is sin. Are you saying that there is no such thing as wrong?
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kathy (kayms91) said
And Lawman… there is a saying… just because a man is paranoid, that doesn’t mean he is not being followed.
Just because someone uses fear of damnation to manipulate you that doesn’t mean it isn’t real.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Let me explain my point of view Kay. The idea of Sin created by the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church of which may I add still controls what a majority of Christians believe is heresy and what is sin. This idea was widely introduced during the Dark Ages. It is called the Dark Ages not because there was no electricity or it was unnaturally Dark. It is called the Dark Ages because horrible events including but not limited to genocide of jews,muslims, and other non christian faiths happened. This was also a time the Church was a governing body in the world. Effectivly making the Roman Catholic Church a kind of world government because all governments answered to the church in some way or form. The Church had the power to legally overturn a judge and ruling monarch or other legislative body. Demons and Devils were created by the church by twisting the old religion’s symbols into evil things. In Numbers when it was describing King Solomon, who practiced a kind of Sorcery that at that time was considered of God. The original texts did not denounce this type of sorcery and did not call the malicious beings as demons. The hebrew word used translates into evil spirits. King Solomon banished those evil spirits to Sheol, using the Sorcery or as the texts translate Power of God. The King James version written in this time this “directly translated” book was translated from latin but the bible we know today served the purpose of spreading fear of the Old Religion just so the Church had more converts and therefore made more money. These are not theories they are evident in History books. The Song of Saul and Numbers were two books that were altered. There was also many more but I do not want to list more. This is why the King James Version actually has conflicting messages. The New King James Version corrected this obvious and blatent error of conflicting messages. All of this information is relavent. The information I am sharing is fruits of my many years researching history. Anyway from the fact there is no scriptual proof of demons there is scriptural proof of Fallen Angels. These fallen angels was actually eradicated during the flood. The flood happened because the fallen angels and human females mated and had children that angered God. All of this is in the Bible. But the Jews do not and never taught of sin. Following the Laws of Moses or the Torah is paramount but if you slip up on minor things it is not breaking the law. But the major things, Adultry, and Murder just a couple of examples is breaking the law and the punishment is facing God for your crimes. (You are executed.) This practice doesn’t happen as much in America but in Isreal iy does. The Catholic Church created sin as propaganda to be able to bring more in as well as thier tithes. This created a movement of which the Catholic Church started but they pulled out after the last crusade. But from a Theological stand point the Messiah saves us from our transgressions against God. Just as long as we do not reject HIM. Which may I add rejecting the Church is not the same thing. But the fact remains all your transgressions are gone and theologically if you confess to God your “sins” after you are saved all of these “sins” are forgiven. That is in the theology. Anything added to that is not theologically sound. But because the Church taught in those days if if you were saved you cannot confess your sins directly to god. You have to do that to the Clergymen. Now you are in a box telling deep dark secrets. The Church did blackmail several influential people in history because of this “confession” system. Also looking at almost everything you do including marital procreation is a sin, also regular human bodily functions are sins as well. Everything is a sin to christianity except going to Church. Which there are reasons for that because there was a sect of christianity that taught women and men are equals (this is also central in the Old Religion Thelogy.) procreation was not a sin against God, that God actually wants it to happen between married couples. And that Jesus was married before he died on the cross. The Catholic Church put this sect to death and burned thier manuscripts and teachings. There is more blood in the history of Christianity than the blood Hitler spilled when he commited his genocidal acts. Also there was not actual word Sin in any language before 1000 years ago. That is kind of strange don’t you think? If Sin was not created by man then there would be a word for it in other languages before the Dark Ages.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Also Kay just because someone uses fear to manipulate you does not mean is real. Just because it was written in a book and the word Holy stamped on the cover does not make it Holy or True.
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kathy (kayms91) said
EE…I acknowledge that there may be fallacies in the Bible because of man’s free will. And as to the use of fear to manipulate… I believe that there is a punishment after death for those who commit the SIN of rejecting Jesus… I don’t base that belief on another’s attempts to manipulate and misuse truths… my statement to Lawman is pertaining to what seems to be his and many other’s argument that they often use to not believe… the attemps of people to control and scare others into agreeing with their views.
Thanks for trying to explain to me your view… but I have to say that it didn’t convince me that the concept of sin is a delusion. Offenses to God, if I think I do understand you, you do agree) are existant and that is what I am calling sin. That the Catholic church is without a doubt the grandfather of all manipulations and misuses of Christianity thru out history is not an excuse to dismiss Christianity ( as many clearly have) and especially the concept of sin. Again… just because some control freaks.. Catholic patriarchs in this instance.. have successfully spread their warped views and injected their influence into Christianity… that DOESN’T MEAN that the entire Christian religion and the FUNDAMENTAL beliefs are not truth! Adam and Eve are a great example… Eve SINNED ( you may call it something else, but I call it sin) against God by DISOBEYING his rules. To go against God in any way shape or form IS SIN!!
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kathy (kayms91) said
I still don’t understand your point… is it wrong to go against God? What do you define as “going against God”?
Abortion, the destruction of a human life that is a creation of God’s, a blessing, clearly seems to be AGAINST GOD!! I don’t care if you call it sin or something else… bottom line, it is in offense to God!!… and we call it sin.
How can it be ok with him for us to terminate his creation just because the timing wasn’t right??? or the person was created out of the SIN of rape? It is NOT that person’s fault that his/ her ‘parent’ committed a sin… it is not right to punish them for their ‘parent’s’ sins.
If you refer to the Bible… we were not created to glorify ourselves and please ourselves… we were created to glorify God… And also as the Bible states… those who love God will have rewards beyond what they ever could imagine because he loves us more than we could ever imagine. It is liberals… not conservatives who are not willing to sacrifice for God… that pretty much sums up the differences between the two!!
Again, I’m not getting your point… are you just being technical about the word ‘sin’? Because I don’t care about that… an offense to God is WRONG no matter what you want to call it! Fundamental Christians call it sin… sin does exist… it is not a ‘conceptual dilusion’ just because of the lunacies of the twisted, power hungry patriarchs of the Catholic church. The very basics of the Christian religion are good and evil and which side we fall on… are you ( and others) trying to rewrite that? To convince people that evil doesn’t exist? If you are, you are going against God! You are on the other side!!
And speaking of being on the other side…Rev. Ray… if you are reading… I’m still waiting to hear your responses to my posts / questions!! And also for you to follow thru with your implication that you would post my email on your site.. since you don’t have a comment page… still waiting for that too…. I’m SICK of liberals not being able to defend themselves….yet STAYING with their IGNORANT beliefs!!! Do you all not know what justification means???? Still waiting for you to justify your views!!
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kathy (kayms91) said
Still waiting for Rev. Ray to respond to my points… but even more.. for him to follow thru with HIS implication that he would post my email on his ‘testimonials’ page (with his response)….. why no debate / comment page on your site Rev.Ray? If you believe your views are the right views, why are you so reluctant to debate them?
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Lawman2 said
lol i do like how much you dislike that worm of a man there kay!
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Rev. Ray Dubuque said
Kathy, you pretend to be asking me a question and then put me down for NOT ANSWERING YOU. Did you EVER invite me to take part in this phony conversation of yours? I don’t recall your doing so, and I ALWAYS jump at opportunities to expose more people to my views.
Before you get into your argument, why do you misdirect your reader(s) to my MAIN menu page, instead of to http://liberalslikejesus.org/ChristianChoice which is the page on abortion that you are trying to refute. Are you afraid your reader(s) may agree with ME?
Then you misrepresent my view, saying that “your main argument is that abortion is not clearly addressed as a sin in the Bible so therefor it must be ok, as is also your argument for homosexuality also being ok with God.”
Anyone reading my page can see that I make it clear there that – UNLIKE YOUR SIDE – I DON’T CLAIM TO SPEAK FOR GOD: “There is absolutely nothing wrong with people believing with all their heart, and soul and mind that a human person begins at conception, if that is what they choose to believe. It’s even alright, in a democracy such as America, for people with such beliefs to promote legislation that would make abortion at any stage of pregnancy and in every instance murder. But it is wrong to claim the authority of the Jewish or the Christian Bible for such beliefs. If people want to adopt and promote such “extra-biblical” beliefs, then they should be honest enough to admit that there is no more support for them in the bible than there is for sending people to hell for playing cards, drinking or smoking in moderation, dancing, or practicing birth control. Conservative preachers have always had more reasons to send people to hell than Jesus gave them.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Rev. Ray..I do not believe that it should be alright for anyone to promote legislation based on religious views. This is because I live in America and according to the Constitution such legislation violates Freedom of Religion in some way. The separation of church and state line was created by the conservatives, they used that line a lot in the 80’s and 90’s when other religions started to be openly talked about in subjects. I remember when a parent rose a huge stink about a teacher allowing parents of students that follow other religions to talk about their religion in Social Studies. The chapter of the book was called World Religions. With this in mind I always laugh when I hear a Conservative Christian talk about the separation of Church and State was never in the Constitution. (I see a lot of hypocritical actions from this group.) Even with the true message of Jesus, being to love your fellow man like a brother. He never said love your fellow Jew, or love your fellow Christian. He said fellow man, also much like with the constitution. The word man had two meanings back then. Not only was it a word to describe the male of this species, but it also described the species as a whole. I would like to address a question I ask to every man or woman of faith. Since I haven’t seen much of Kay, and I am NOT and never will consider myself a “Conservative” Christian (I do not feel that God has much interest in the governments and politics of man and they do not belong in his house.) My question is If having active faith (as described in the bible..I think John or one of the books John wrote.) and believing that Jesus was the Christ and died for our sins. Then wouldn’t things like sexual orientation be forgiven? Also things have changed since the Old and New Testaments have been written. They were still written by a man, and a man’s personal views would go into his or her own writings. It is just human nature. But since we understand things and behaviors a lot better now, and that having attraction to the same sex is not really a choice. Wouldn’t any Old Testament writing on this subject be obsolete, and unusable since God’s purpose for Jesus was to make a way for sins to be washed clean (metaphorically of course.) by being saved? Or is my observations and understandings I have had all of my life on this subject false?
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Kay said
Rev. Ray.. you’ve commented here before, I believe we’ve exchanged words on this site. I would have asked my question on your site but I see that you STILL don’t have a place to do so. Yes, you give your visitors /readers an opportunity to email you but that’s not the same thing. You clearly want to moderate before anything gets posted on your site. Why is that? Are you afraid that someone might question you and you won’t be able to defend yourself? And that might cause you to lose possible monetary support? (it must be nice to retire after only 20 yrs btw).
I’m sorry for my tone but I’m just matching yours. No, I’m not at all afraid that people might agree with you on the abortion issue. I KNOW that anyone who agrees with you will only be doing so because that is what they WANT to believe. Your chosen beliefs conveniently make you money and are not hard to sell… at all. What you are doing is as old as the Gospels that you are trying so hard to rewrite for your own benefit. Sorry again, but that’s the way I see it. And that is primarily because of your very arguments that you think defend your views. They don’t. I’ve presented several counter points here that I know you’ve read… and yet no response to those points. But I will address your points that you recently made. You say that you don’t speak for God.. then why the “Rev.” title? People are going to especially take your words as truth when you use that title. All the more reason / excuse for them to believe these things that they already WANT to believe. I don’t have a title like yours and even though my views are different than yours, there is nothing for you to use to support your accusation that I “claim the authority” of the evangelical interpretation of the Bible. It’s what I believe and I don’t make any special claims beyond that. You claim there is “no support” for my beliefs of what the Bible says and that is YOUR oppinion. You should make that clear too! You have no authority either.. despite your “title”. I believe there is much in the Bible to support the evangelical interpretation. And again, there is nothing to support your assertions except the ABSENCE of addressment in the Bible. Again this is absurd. There are MANY things that are not specifically addressed in the Bible that we all agree are wrong and against God’s will. So, this “argument” of yours is nothing but reaching… and deep down you know it. The more I read your writings the more reaching I find. I’ve asked you once already.. what exactly is your motivation for your “work”? It’s not God and His will… I am sure of this.
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princessxxx said
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Kay said
I have a comment in moderation… where are you guys?
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princessxxx said
WHAT, THAT YOUR PASTOR SAYS “BURN THE KORAN”?
BUSTED.
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princessxxx said
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/hp_blogger_Steven%20Weber?action=comments
“I would pay good money to see you masturbate a poodle.” – Steven Weber to kamsie.
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Kay said
Steven’s just frustrated. I’m not holding it against him.
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horsservice said
@Kay
Approved;)
I might participate to the debate later on, if you and Rev. are finished.
By the way, try to keep the tone level as courteous as possible, everyone…
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Kay said
Thanks Hors… I’m going to go over to Rev. Ray’s site now and email him to let him know I’ve responded.. so he can’t claim that I’m “faking” our debate..
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princessxxx said
oh, kkkams, why arE you being such a hypocritical snit? Felon Keller does not allow anyone to comment on any of his sites, he is such a coward. HE IS AFRAID ANY ONE WILL QUESTION HIM, WHY DON’T YOU TRY PULLING THAT LITTLE TRICK ON KELlER?
and hors, it wasn’t me that said kams should masterbate a poodle, it was a well respected american “actor”.
i’m being nice as always.
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princessxxx said
by the way , kkkams is back because she just got deleted for the huffington post for the 3rd time. bye bye kkkamsy.
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Enkill Eridos said
I will wait for another three years for another posting on this “debate.” Kay entertains me, really she does. Huffpo..not so much, a lot of whining there. I am so glad we are the only site not to mention the “world event” going on that half the world really doesn’t care one way or another. I was going to post something, but however cracked.com beat me to it. I guess one day I will stop working trying to make money and write a post..Until then sit back relax and laugh at the post I was writing, but was posted before I did.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/
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Enkill Eridos said
Oh, and I find it funny Kay didn’t respond to my question to Ray..I would really like to hear her take on if being Homosexual is a sin and that sin has already been paid for, according to the theological teachings of Christianity. How someone that was born with the attraction to the same sex is going to hell if he or she is saved…Other than the argument they truly are not saved…Because I can use that argument for a lot of the Conservative Christians that keep this ridiculous debate on going…because if you are going by the literal words of the bible it says very clearly and exactly..No man has a right to judge another, the sole judge of man is God. The same book that says we must love our fellow man, especially if they are our enemies. I guess Bill Keller skipped those verses. We cannot know all of God’s Will, but there is one thing anyone who has read the bible will tell you. Part of God’s Will is for us to be harmonious with each other. We are to love one another as we do ourselves. We are to do more for others than ourselves. THAT IS PART OF GOD’S WILL. It is funny those talking about God’s Will, and bringing countries back to God. Yet, some of these people talk about burning a book out of malice. God’s Will isn’t selective, you do not talk about God, then talk about creations of God in a judgmental way. We have no right to judge, for that is God’s job.
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princessxxx said
homosexuality is only a sin if it isn’t practiced properly.
we gotta get out there and gay everything up.
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WPRayosun said
Hello Kay,
Hopefully, We’ve progressed in the past ten years. Although as a conservative, that may be “against your religion”.LOL I’ve updated the link in your post so it is now directed to my latest version of that page i.e.http://ChristianChoice.org
To address the main objection in your original post, liberal Christians like me can promote the BEST of Scripture, like the teaching of Jesus, while opposing the WORST of Scripture, like some of the teaching of Paul of Tarsus, because we don’t want Paul’s well-earned bad reputation (outside of your small world perhaps) ruining the well-learned reputation of The teaching of Jesus. see more at my http://WhatWouldJesusThink.info/AboutBadNewsPaul.html .
But you conservatives, on the other hand, are stuck with supporting everything in Scripture, because you say it is all inspired by God, and all inerrant, which I show incidentally is foolish at my http://WhatWouldJesusThink.info/AboutBiblicalinerrancy.html pages. Rev. Ray Dubuque
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