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news and things sacred and irreverent put together by opinionated people.

Caveman’s View of Freedom of Choice Act

Posted by lawman2 on January 13, 2009

A picture is worth a million words…or so they say, what do you think?abortion1

IN MOST STATES:  If  a man were to attack his pregnant girlfriend, carrying  his child that he didn’t want, it wouldn’t be long and he would be charged with attempted murder for trying to kill the unborn child inside her.  BUT the girlfriend can choose to have an abortion and murder the fetus if she is so inclined…

My how the terms change depending on if the unborn child is wanted or not isn’t it?  Murder to abortion Unborn Child to Fetus.

On Thursday, Manishkumar M. Patel, 34, of Appleton, was accused of slipping the drug(RU-486) to the woman without her knowledge. He was charged with seven felonies and two misdemeanors, including attempted first-degree intentional homicide of an unborn child.

 How can you be charged with killing something that isn’t life? That is a good question if you ask me.

Wisconsin is one of 37 states with a “fetal homicide” law, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Under the 1998 law, anyone who attacks a pregnant woman and injures or kills her fetus could face life in prison.

There are many many more cases I can post.  But I think you get the general idea.  Okay, I am going to try to say this without sounding like too much of an asshole. Attacking a pregnant woman is about the most despicable, disgusting crime a person can commit, but how can it be a crime to do harm to the unborn child if that child is not life according to the pro-choice crowd?

images2 This was not a case of a woman being attacked, this was a case of the father of the baby not wanting the baby. If this woman had decided to have an abortion she would not have committed a crime, neither would the doctor who performed the procedure. So what this really comes down to is WHO decides to kill the unborn.

I wrote this post in response to Freedom of Choice Act posted by Enkill_Eridos

You can read more caveman’s perspectives from lawman Just A Caveman

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60 Responses to “Caveman’s View of Freedom of Choice Act”

  1. These laws are not far but because simular incidents occured and women in those states pressed charges. There is no real federal guidelines to say if these laws are right or wrong because of different peoples ethics and morals. This issue will always be a split issue. Bottom line Abortion saves lives, if we made it illegal again, then the coat hanger approach would be used which is much more damaging and can lead to death. Not only is the act of abortion a truly tramatising act because of the ingrained maternal instincts of women unless of course it was concieved of rape or if the woman was slipped a mickey (which in many states the law states that as rape but not in all states.) then the woman should not feel sorry. If you call BS on that statement think of this. Scientific fact, familiar history does affect the mental state of a person through genetic markers. Science has proved the saying the Apple does not fall too far from the tree true.

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  2. Lawman2 said

    no telling what kind of shit i just got myself into by posing this,but guess we will all find out soon enough…

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  3. Lawman2 said

    i feel sorry for the women who are brainwashed into believing abortion is nothing really.

    i don’t commit murder because i am afraid of hell,nor because of the law (although that is a bigger deterrent for me lol)BUT i don’t commit murder because it is taking the life of another human being PERIOD.now i can sit and feel sorry for the woman who kills her husband,or the man who kills his wife,because both had spouses they no longer wanted….but it is still murder.just as i can feel sorry for the woman who kills her unborn child because she doesn’t want it…but it is still murder.

    may not be politically correct.may make me sound like a total ass.hell to be honest i am a total ass,and seldom do i use politically correct terms….BUT shouldn’t people be informed?instead of left in the dark,just to keep this abortion business booming?

    the coat hanger shit you know wasn’t like an overwhelming number,but somehow that is always brought to light.and now with birth control so readily available there is no excuse big enough for murdering an unborn child.maybe 1 that would be if the mother’s life was at risk which is less than 0.004%.even in other countries it’s rare for laws criminalizing abortion not to provide exemptions for rape and incest; it’s unheard of for them not to provide exemptions for the life of the mother

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  4. Lawman2 said

    by the way where the hell have you been lately e_e?good to read you again man!

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  5. Lawman2 said

    wonder what my pretty little liberal wife will say in the morning when she reads my post…i actually wonder if anything anyone says will change anyone’s own ideas and/or beliefs on this important issue of what i call legalized murder.

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  6. kathy (kayms91) said

    That’s exactly what it is… brainwashing by Liberals… none of them ever talk about or acknowledge the sorrow women feel AFTER they’ve done it… Planned Parenthood fights hard to keep women from being informed of the factors involved in what they are about to do… what is actually being ripped out of them… that it’s NOT just a “clump of cells”.

    Here is a video of an ACTUAL abortion…
    http://www.liveprayer.com/aborsion.cfm

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  7. But not everyone says this, and I have been to an actual abortion. Unfortunately it is very gruesome but it is better for it to happen in a clinical setting than in an alley.

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  8. kathy (kayms91) said

    Yes, I agree with you EE… it is better for a woman to be in a clinic than an alley way BUT that still doesn’t make it ok… what ever happened to accountability??? The woman in the alley got herself in that position and SHE is making the CHOICE to hurt herself… this country offers other choices… there is help available… the answer is not to make it easy to kill life. Woman in alleys are making the wrong choice! We must hold people responsible for their actions and choices. To not do so is irresponsible. And as a society we are responsible to make available the help that is needed.

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  9. Oh and Kathy I have said this stuff where planned parenthood is more essential than Abortion the only reason why I support Legal Abortion Clinics is because I would rather not walk out of my door and look in an alleyway and see a dead woman who tried to get an illegal alleyway abortion. I have seen enough death for one life time. I do not need to see what I can see in a third world country in my own backyard.

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  10. It comes down to this it isn’t our desicion it is the womens descision free will makes this so.

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  11. SewDucky said

    It’s a moral issue period which is why this is always a heated argument.

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  12. Rj said

    A woman’s decision, right…not Kathy’s/Kay’s OTA’s, Lawman’s…

    Lawman, you say you feel sorry for those that are uninformed, what in the hell makes you think anyone is uninformed? That is an assumption. As a society, we are responsible for allowing people to make choices for their bodies.

    You think any doctors tell you what’s going on via “informed consent?” Haha think again or you may have been grossly uniformed as well.

    What if we start locking you up for believing in Magic and make-believe, because you may be psychopathic?

    And how do you know if GOD didn’t tell a woman to get an abortion? Yeah, prove that one. Christians can execute under command of the Almighty…but how can anyone prove that it wasn’t supposed to be so?

    We should also ban jacking off and save the little spermy babies that die when they don’t meet their true final destination?

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  13. Rj said

    And lawman, if you kill me, its murder, if I kill myself…well…if I didn’t succeed…should I be charged with attempted murder of myself?

    Just because a woman chooses an abortion doesn’t give someone else the authority to kill her unborn, living, or not. Your comparison is simple-minded at best. This is about choice to do as you so desire with your OWN body. OWN body….sheesh.

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  14. Rj said

    I think people get off by showing images of abortions…and those are the people, that I think are really sick. Do you show soldier pictures of the “enemy” which could be women or children, that have been obliterated, so that they know what they are getting into when they go to war? Matter of fact, the better question is what other procedure, do we show to others in full detail, before they get it done?

    This is really disgusting and a lowball, lowlife tactic.

    And I wasn’t laughing at abortion, Kathy, I find your beliefs and your apparent belief that your beliefs supercede anyone else’s that differs from you, completely comical.

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  15. Lawman2 said

    rj do you realize how angry you sound?facts are facts.if it is murder when the man kills the unborn baby inside a woman,then it is murder when the woman does the same.

    i feel no anger toward anyone who disagrees with me,but it mildly amuses me when others get up in arms to disagree with me…hehehe

    take a chill pill do whatever you liberals do to ease your conscience and get back with me on why you feel there is a difference.and by the way yes if you try to take your own life,you will be locked up…it is still attempted murder.you can not do harm to yourself or anyone else,without there being some kind of legal consequences

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  16. But lawman You should know this better than I do. Since the Catholic Church’s brainwashing of the masses that women are inferior to men, Because “God” says so. For instance if TTW (I hope that she does not get so angry with you to do this, nor do I hope I give her this Idea but this comes from a case my uncle worked on.) falsified charges that you abused her and has “proof” and is a really really good actress. You could be tried for a tirade of things. But if she actually did it to you and you where all messed up the Cops would just laugh at you. The judicial system is not an unbiased thing. Also I would like to point out there are still laws in effect unenforced but in effect in each state. The whole fiasco about the Gay couple in Texas is a good example of that, they were charged with sodomy because it was a crime that was in effect just not enforced as much. If the same situation happened to a straight couple it would have been ignored by the police. I think the Judicial system is a joke, it is based on archaic superstitious religious right and wrong thought. Every law in Federal, State, and County. Should be checked take out the laws that no matter have any meaning reevaluate some current laws. Bring equality in to the court room, where a man has the same chance to win a case against a woman as a woman has against a man. And take out these stupid Fetal Death laws. Because here is a major fact. A fetus is not a legal citizen of the United States untill they are born therefore said fetus cannot be protected by the laws of this country. A fetus is developing into a person when that fetus is done developing it is born. At that time birth certificates are made and the child no longer a fetus but a child and a citizen of the united states gets put into the system. That child is assigned its citizen number (Social Security Number.) and is concidered a citizen. The reason why if I was to slap around a pregnant woman making her have a miscarriage I get thrown in prision for a fetal death is because it is just one more charge to put on you. One more description of the crime. You say fetal death in a court room and prove it, you win the jury feels sorry for the mother. It is only a crime if an assault happens. I am not saying abortion is not murder. I am saying it is not my place to judge, and it is not our place as US Citizens to harrass our fellow citizens for our choices. If I was harrassed by people who didn’t support the war and people called me a baby killer. I would hit them. We all have choices in life, it is each individual’s responsibility to make sure those are informed choices. Before you join the Army you are given a lot of informative material, so you can make an informed descision. They do not tell you everything because truthfully they can’t. But that doesn’t stop someone from going to the VFW or DAV or whatever and ask the vets there what it was like. Listen to stories, you are given a one week period at which time the recruiter calls you back and asks if you have thought about it. It is assumed that you do research into the effects of a procedure. A good doctor will tell you the Side Effects of any procedure. Should Abortions be concidered in a legal sense? No it should not because there are really good excuses to have an abortion. Other than incestial rape and what not. Rape is also a horrible thing, it is worse than abortion in my book. But no one really cares about Rape and the effects of rape on a woman or a man. No body cares about the good reasons besides rape to have an abortion. Let’s say you are a woman dating a controlling man. This relationship is mentally abusive. You have sex, at first it is not consensual but before the penis is inserted you cave in and say “Yes”. By legal definition it is then consensual, even though you are mentally tortured untill you say yes. The condom breaks you get pregnant. My question to this is do you want to contanimate our already overpopulated with idiocy gene pool? Abortion is murder but it also helps keep idiots and morons, and genetic markers that cause dangerous psychological conditions, out of our society. You all may think I am a little harsh, but some people just should not procreate. There are so many children being abused, neglected, orphaned. With the way the housing market is more families are living in homeless shelters than before. People with no drug problems, no alchohol problems. People that gets laid off and struggles to find a job but does what they can to feed thier family. A lot of families are faced with a descision to either feed thier kids or pay the house payment. These are issues that matter. Abortion does not. Who cares if a fetus is life or not. We should not impose our beliefs on other people. I smoke I don’t care if a biased scientific company has proved it to cause cancer. I am tired of bull shit issues, being pushed by both conservatives and liberals. Just so the American people sees what one had is doing but not what the other hand is doing. That’s all these “hot topic” issues are just to destract us from our societies real problems.

    And that is all I have to say about that.

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  17. dorian9 said

    well here we go again with abortion. let me say, along with sewducky, that this is a moral issue. so how dare anybody think of criminalizing, on the basis of moral beliefs, (their own) what a woman chooses to do with her body. isn’t a zygote physiologically and technically a part of a woman’s body, an organ, another appendage, not an autonomous living breathing life form? i’m pro-choice simply because i’m for human rights. pro-lifers are so concerned about saving the lives of the unborn when the issue of “when life begins” is still in contention. isn’t there something in the bible about male masturbation being a no-no because of the seeds of life not being used for it’s purpose of procreation?
    pro-life should be for the living, above all. if there is a good and valid reason why a woman would choose to abort then she should be able to do it safely and without the threat of being stoned to death by those without “sin”. some will say “abortion is abortion, early or late abortion -you can’t pick and choose” well, then maybe it also should be “pro-life is pro-life, euthanasia, capital punishment, war and the killing of civilians including children – you can’t pick and choose”. ironically there are those that are against abortion who are for war or are okay with capital punishment for the likes of ted bundy or manson.i dont like repeating myself as i’ve posted my opinion on this already so goodbye! welcome back e_e!

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  18. dorian9 said

    i’m for everyone looking at celibacy first or snip-snip for those not ready to have children. too many irresponsible people passing on genes adding on to the massive pool of obtuse irresponsible population. or we can all be soylent green. that will solve the hunger problem..

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  19. kathy (kayms91) said

    This is what the Freedom of Choice Act will do…
    from Bill Keller’s website:

    “Out of our rebellion to God, the people have now elected a man to lead this nation who is a staunch supporter of legalized infanticide. Speaking to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund on July 17, 2007, Senator Obama said, “The first thing I’d do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That’s the first thing that I’d do.” President Obama will repay the support of those in the baby killing industry by insuring abortion on demand at any stage of the pregnancy, and through executive orders, he will wipe out any progress individual states have made in trying to ban abortions in their state. As President, he will elect judges to the US Supreme Court who will insure Roe vs. Wade is never overturned, as well as activist judges to the Federal Courts who will rule on the side of death in any abortion cases.”

    The Freedom of Choice Act will allow a woman to choose to (C) to terminate a pregnancy after viability where termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman;

    to protect the life OR HEALTH of the woman…. WHAT??? This is extremely vague and will allow abortions to be performed at any stage!!! Because the woman has a headache and might have an aneurism?? This ‘noble’ Act is a license to kill, in the most barbaric way, the most innocent of the innocent with no hindrances at all… “Open season” will become “OPEN YEAR ROUND”….

    I would really like to hear the Liberal’s opinion on this Act… that abortions will be performed on demand AT ANY STAGE. Do you support this Act?

    Rj… I’ll ask you but this question is really directed at all of the Liberals out there… why is it that (according to all the Liberals here it seems ) that I am ‘arrogant’ with my opposing view? Why am I the only one guilty of this? Your view is different but I don’t accuse you of being arrogant. Just please explain to me how my position (having an opposing view) is any different from yours???

    You said: “And I wasn’t laughing at abortion, Kathy, I find your beliefs and your apparent belief that your beliefs supercede anyone else’s that differs from you, completely comical.”
    What exactly did I do or say to justify this assumption about me??? And how are you any different???

    The IGNORANCE by Liberals here is just overwhelming!!

    Rj said..
    I think people get off by showing images of abortions…and those are the people, that I think are really sick.

    If that is the case with some people…SO WHAT!!! That’s not the point!!! You are sidestepping the issue!! The point is a life and is it right to take that life…PERIOD!!!!!

    The abortion video is factual… pictures don’t lie!! Liberals have a real problem with addressing the FACTS in this issue!

    Your war comparison is ridiculous… YES.. why not show ALL participating parties of a war what is actually going on!! I bet there would be less wars!!!

    EE… you said: It comes down to this it isn’t our desicion it is the womens descision free will makes this so.

    Free will has limits in society, particularly when someone’s free will has a direct effect on another. I agree with your statement up UNTIL the point when a woman’s choice is effecting the life of another… especially one that cannot speak for themselves. WHAT ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS??…

    In defending a woman’s right to choose early in a pregnancy, when life is more debatable, there will soon be, because of this Act, a FLOOD of REAL babies being killed. And this is OK because someone having their rights infringed on is more important??? Again, can you people just honestly compare the these two things? I refuse to believe that someone can support this act and still consider themselves compassionate… NOT POSSIBLE!! STOP IGNORING THE FACTS!!!!

    My daughter was born 3 weeks early, she was not full term. She was a normal healthy baby… but because a baby is inside the mother at that point it can be legal to KILL him or her??? For some vague ‘health’ reason??? You are so right EE, our justice system is messed up!!

    Rj, you said:

    Just because a woman chooses an abortion doesn’t give someone else the authority to kill her unborn, living, or not. Your comparison is simple-minded at best. This is about choice to do as you so desire with your OWN body. OWN body….sheesh.

    “OWN body”?? This statement is COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the OTHER BODY involved!!! Sorry, but my other ‘buzz’ word besides ignorance is NARCISISM which Liberals here are fully demonstrating.

    Dorian…you said:
    this is a moral issue NO IT ISN’T…not when the baby can live outside the womb… it is certainly NOT a moral issue!!!

    How do you feel about the Freedom of Choice Act????

    i’m pro-choice simply because i’m for human rights. pro-lifers are so concerned about saving the lives of the unborn when the issue of “when life begins” is still in contention.

    Pro choice people are so concerned about their rights when, BECAUSE of the contention of “when life begins”, babies ARE being murdered BUT CLEARLY that is not as bad as infringing on someones rights…GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!

    And I’ve already explained the OBVIOUS AND CLEAR differences between war and abortion and capital punishment and abortion… NOT THE SAME ISSUES!!! STOP IGNORING THE FACTS!!! STOP THE IGNORANCE!!!

    pro-life should be for the living, above all.

    Unborn babies ARE LIVING… they have a beating heart, they suck their thumbs!!
    http://www.mccl.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=298

    Please Liberals… let’s hear what you have to say about the Freedom of Choice ( Freedom to Kill) Act!!!

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  20. Enkill_Eridos said

    I have already said my peace on that. I posted the actual act and my view on it already I do not need to repeat myself. I do not think anyone else needs to see things my way. Just as long as you understand the way I see things. I do agree with you Kathy but that has nothing to do with the issue. Abortions should be illegal at 4 to 6 weeks. That is when I believe life starts. That is when the fetus has thumbs and whatnot. That is when a heartbeat can be descerned, that is the point medical science tells us learning starts. As it stands abortions are illegal late second trimester and on. And I have said all I am going to say about abortions on this site forever. I believe there is more important issues that must be discussed. And therefore will not take part in this futile fruitless debate.

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  21. Enkill_Eridos said

    (3) VIABILITY- The term `viability’ means that stage of pregnancy when, in the best medical judgment of the attending physician based on the particular medical facts of the case before the physician, there is a reasonable likelihood of the sustained survival of the fetus outside of the woman.

    That is the definition in the Freedom of Choice Act. I posted the full act in a post. But the ignorance I see is that you say the Act will allow abortions at all stages which is not true. When the fetus is viable the definition according to the act of viable is above. This would actually make second trimester abortions illegal due to the fact that the fetus could be concidered viable at the second trimester. There has been successful second trimester births, so much infact to allow some doctors to call the second trimester stage as a viable stage. Meaning the child can live outside of the womb. Read the actual act it is on this page. It is not taken from a site spewing conservative or Liberal poisions. But from the Library of Congress records. I trust government records more than what some wack job prolifer or prochoicer says about the act. In black and white reading the act puts most of your argument as false Kathy. Thank you come again.

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  22. Enkill_Eridos said

    Plus your protect the life of the woman is actually a very specific terminology. Meaning directly life threatening. I can think of many medical complications to include ectopic pregnancy, Uterine Hemmoraging, plus there are a few more life threatening conditions that would allow an abortion at the viable stage. But this is talking about a different kind of abortion. When you say Abortion of a pregancy everyone assumes death. In the late second and third trimester a OBGYN usually aborts the pregnancy when a life threatening condition occurs. This is how it happens, artifical induced labor is concidered abortion of the pregnancy. The baby comes out and is healthy. But is legally described as an Abortion. The term Abortion is actually in reference to the Ending of a Pregancy through artifical or natural terms. Your own body can abort a pregnancy, this is called a miscarriage. You speak of the negative side of Abortion but refuse to see the positive side of Abortion and what happens when the baby is viable. Yes there are scumbag doctors out there, but that is a minority. A Majority of late term Abortions are because of a health risk and the baby is healthy just needs to be in the NICU for a few months. This applies for a majority of late term abortions. The minority is what you guys are talking about. It truely does not happen that often but it does happen. This isn’t Liberal or Conservative poison it is truth. Oh and in most states the law is very clear about the late term abortion procedures. In florida a late term abortion is only legal to be performed in a hospital setting with a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. And in a Majority of states this is the law. Because again the legal and true medical definintion of Abortion is the pre mature end of a pregancy usually done in an artificial way. Miscarrages are labled as a type of abortion. If we say Abortion is illegal and make it so, this also means the babies we would save due to late abortion procedures. Stop looking at the negative and look at the positive.

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  23. SewDucky said

    Explain why it is anytime you get into a debate about anything it always comes to the Catholic Church is bad? The idea of women being inferior is not the domain of JUST the Catholics and it really makes any argument seem lame and biased, and frankly, after the statement in which you may have valid things to say many people will go pfft and move on.

    I’m not a Catholic, btw, I grew up as one yes but the religious choice had nothing to do with abortion (of which I know of no Christian based faith where the right to choose is a viable option, and really Pagans are about it and even then it’s individuals not the group at large) and abuse is abuse, period. If cops are laughing at any victim of domestic violence, then there are checkpoints to remove the bad cop from the system. Check your own statements for archaic beliefs then attack the system.

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  24. SewDucky said

    And for the record, before you start jumping all over me about my beliefs on abortion, I fall into none of the above. Whatever religion you believe, or none at all, the belief of not passing judgment applies. I have a child that if I was pro-life would wonder if I really wanted him and if I was pro-abortion would wonder why he lived, so my views on it will remain my own.

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  25. Enkill_Eridos said

    The Catholic Church is the easiest example I can think of. Plus a big majority of Christianity, which is a good majority of the population, stemmed from the Catholic Church and many Churches teach that women are inferior, stemmed from the mother church’s teachings. Also it does happen, even though it is not as common as it used to be but it does happen. I know it happens, I have seen it happen. The bottom line is the courts still favor women in a lot of cases dealing with sexual crimes and abuse. And that is fact not opinion. It is a lot harder for me to claim that a women raped me as the same woman can claim I raped her. Which one do you think would be believed. Of course the only way the courts would side with a man is if the woman weighed more than the man.

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  26. Enkill_Eridos said

    Oh I do not bash people for thier beliefs just when thier beliefs have no evident facts behind them. And Sewducky I believe that debates on Abortions are retarded anyway. There are more important issues we can debate. But Kathy has a way of just pulling me in. I am actually defending Abortions because there is a positive side to the term Abortion. And it is a broader term medically and legally than most people realize.

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  27. Enkill_Eridos said

    And has anyone really realized that this post really doesn’t convey how this is supposed to support or argue the fact I posted an actual bill up for vote with my own afterward, besides the fact.

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  28. dorian9 said

    there’s the “you liberals” blanket term again. and the word ignorance married to it. and keller is once again exhumed. your fault, lawman of the apocalypse..i’m leaving before i get stuck into the cast of “no exit”. i prefer “the unbearable lightness of being”.
    anything new on arjay connection?

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  29. tothewire said

    E_E Lawman just likes to get everyone stirred up I think. He even pretty much admits it at times. I have yet to have the man actually address a real debate head on. Haven’t you noticed he how he just throws things out there? I have seen him in action, and this isn’t it. This is more of a game and it quite honestly pisses me off. I do know that he is anti abortion, but he just leaves it out there for everyone to argue over is just wrong. He could address it in a more mature way, and then actually debate per topic hitting each argument head on, then it wouldn’t bother me.

    I am a Catholic and I love my Catholic family. I don’t believe everything the Catholic Church teaches anymore, but I still love and hold dear some traditions and beliefs.

    I am a pro abortion moderate. Meaning I hate abortion, I think it is a horrible thing and it is abused way too often in our Nation. BUT I do believe that abortion shouldn’t be off the table completely. A woman who is raped, is just one example. A womans health would be one of the other reasons.

    I do think we should be pushing legislation for abortion moderation laws.

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  30. Lawman2 said

    well hey there!

    1. there was a time when abortion was a necessarry evil. *Back when conterception wasn’t widely used or available.
    *back before we had evidence that the unborn fetus was indeed a living being.
    *back when a woman might take a coat hanger to herself in hopes to abort a child herself.
    *back when it wasn’t a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY

    2. abortion is a crime against women,children,and our great nation.
    *abortion is used as a birth control method by the ignorant.thus the abuse of the abortion procedures by many women having multiple abortions.
    *if we were told by our government “hey sorry about that, acually a fetus is just a growing baby” it would bankrupt the abortion industry.
    *each state makes major money from each abortion clinic, funding toward research is just one of them.our government feeds women the following lies “pro lifers are engaging a war on women by TELLING them what to do with their bodies…etc” do we call it war on womens bodies if we arrest one for murdering one of her children she has given birth to?

    3 why are more black babies aborted every year than white?hell i think abortion should be looked at as it is a hate crime against women,children, and more specifically black women and children.just a means to making men even more less accountable then women.

    hey there elaina!i don’t mind my wife being catholic,it is part of who she is you might say.i don’t feel any more strongly about the catholic church, then i do against any other church…more or less.

    i throw things out there because i don’t really wish to spend a lot of thought in a long debate, but i do like to put some ideas out there.AND because i do like to read rj and kay!they entertain me and i am sure others as well.

    e_e i don’t think our justice system is not without flaws…obviously.like you i have no desire to condemn anyone over their beliefs BUT i don’t mind condemning the damn system and the government who is selling a lie to make over a billion bucks a year.

    if our government won’t stand up and do what is right who else but WE THE PEOPLE are left to do the right thing for our selves?

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  31. obama the antichrist said

    ok…

    rj you said “And how do you know if GOD didn’t tell a woman to get an abortion? Yeah, prove that one. Christians can execute under command of the Almighty…but how can anyone prove that it wasn’t supposed to be so?”

    why would God want a woman to kill when in the bible it states “I formed you in your mothers womb” (said by God) its his creation so why would he want you to kill it???? and there is your proof thank you and good night
    (and my previous post got deleted i think…..was it cuz i cussed??? my b )

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  32. Rj said

    OTA, you hardly answered my question and that was hardly proof. Everyone (minus test tube babies) is formed in a womb…what’s your point?

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  33. Rj said

    abortion is a crime against women,children,and our great nation.

    wow.

    *abortion is used as a birth control method by the ignorant.thus the abuse of the abortion procedures by many women having multiple abortions.

    can you back up with data the number of one-time abortions vs multiple abortions “as a birth control”?

    do we call it war on womens bodies if we arrest one for murdering one of her children she has given birth to?

    that makes no sense.

    why are more black babies aborted every year than white?hell i think abortion should be looked at as it is a hate crime against women,children, and more specifically black women and children.just a means to making men even more less accountable then women.

    spare me the black pity stuff. if you want to do something, start funding college education and after school programs while leaving abortion alone. It isn’t a hate crime if women have a choice.

    Choice, that is what is getting left out of this.

    Worried about men, start funding for male birth control…50 years past female birth control…still no male equivalent…

    BUT i don’t mind condemning the damn system and the government who is selling a lie to make over a billion bucks a year.

    AND the obstetric industry, and the mental health industry…which is where the BIGGGG bucks are…look at the commercials…and yet, you want to keep the abortion debate open???

    if our government won’t stand up and do what is right who else but WE THE PEOPLE are left to do the right thing for our selves?

    EXACTLY what I’m saying. My body, my choice. If I want to kill myself, fine, if I don’t want to donate my organs, fine, if I want to stay on life support past brain death, fine…if I want to abort my fetus fine.

    Destroy abortion options and you all will open the door to some shit you may have never imagined. The lack of choice has always been and always will be the worst option.

    Like

  34. dorian9 said

    lawman i have to admit kay and rj (and you!) entertain me too. and ota when he’s around.

    some animals, like lionesses, for example, kill and eat their young if they sense that there is something wrong with it, like if it has a birth defect and has no chance for survival. what rj said “And how do you know if GOD didn’t tell a woman to get an abortion? “.. made me think of that. a long shot but humans are a far more advanced species because we have free will and a conscience among other things.. if a young woman was raped by her father and in her heart of hearts she feels giving birth to this child who may be mentally, physiologically and emotionally handicapped is something she chooses not to go through, then would anyone have the right to take away her right to choose the option of early abortion? i would like to think this country is unlike the communist or totalitarian or other government-oppressive countries where citizens can be given forced sterilization and such. taking away a woman’s right to a choice of aborting a zygote before it develops is oppressive, subversive and must not happen here. isn’t this the land of the free? before spending time and negative energy towards infringing one’s own morality upon others, there are more real and immediate issues, like feeding the poverty-stricken families that are casualties of this recession.there are many babies already born that are not getting enough to eat!

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  35. dorian9 said

    “Destroy abortion options and you all will open the door to some shit you may have never imagined. The lack of choice has always been and always will be the worst option.”

    exactly, rj. then it will be the end of democracy and this country as we know it because our freedom of choice is what separates us from being in a communist, dictatorship, or socialist country.
    and that is why everybody wants to immigrate here.

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  36. kathy (kayms91) said

    We weren’t a communist country before abortion was made legal… we were a nation “under God”. Today we are a nation that kills 4,000 babies EACH DAY. I wonder how many of those babies EACH DAY were late term abortion DEATHS? I wonder how many were partial birth abortions EACH DAY Or how many were torn into pieces EACH DAY or how many were poisoned and burned to death EACH DAY.

    Abortion at 20 weeks

    Despite the unborn child’s advanced development at 20 weeks, the following painful abortion procedures are used:

    • Partial-birth abortion (D&X): The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)

    • Dilation and Evacuation (D&E): Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.

    • Saline instillation: Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.

    20 weeks… 5 months… just today my daughter told me about a friend who just had a premature birth at 5 months… the baby is alive and continues to fight. At least he is getting a chance to fight. He is so much better off than the ones mentioned above.

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  37. kathy (kayms91) said

    For anyone who believes in God… how do you honestly think God feels about these babies being murdered EVERY DAY??? Do you think He is happy or angry?? Have you ever heard of the “wrath of God”???

    Our democracy is out of control and it will be the end of us… watch and see…

    Like

  38. kathy (kayms91) said

    The evidence of fetal pain

    With the advent of sonograms and live-action ultrasound images, neonatologists and nurses are able to see unborn babies at 20 weeks gestation react physically to outside stimuli such as sound, light and touch. The sense of touch is so acute that even a single human hair drawn across an unborn baby’s palm causes the baby to make a fist.
    Did you know that this 20-week-old unborn child can feel pain?
    Surgeons entering the womb to perform corrective procedures on tiny unborn babies have seen those babies flinch, jerk and recoil from sharp objects and incisions.

    “The neural pathways are present for pain to be experienced quite early by unborn babies,” explains Steven Calvin, M.D., perinatologist, chair of the Program in Human Rights Medicine, University of Minnesota, where he teaches obstetrics.

    Medical facts of fetal pain

    Anatomical studies have documented that the body’s pain network—the spino-thalamic pathway—is established by 20 weeks gestation.

    • “At 20 weeks, the fetal brain has the full complement of brain cells present in adulthood, ready and waiting to receive pain signals from the body, and their electrical activity can be recorded by standard electroencephalography (EEG).”
    — Dr. Paul Ranalli, neurologist, University of Toronto

    • An unborn baby at 20 weeks gestation “is fully capable of experiencing pain. … Without question, [abortion] is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure.”
    — Robert J. White, M.D., PhD., professor of neurosurgery, Case Western University

    Unborn babies have heightened sensitivities

    Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a “uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop,” according to Dr. Ranalli.

    “Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation,” stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as “pro-choice,” in testimony before the U.S. Congress.

    Given the medical evidence that unborn babies experience pain, compassionate people are viewing abortion more and more as an inhumane and intolerable brutality against defenseless human beings.

    The unborn baby at 20 weeks

    Fetal development is already quite advanced at 20 weeks gestation:

    • The skeleton is complete and reflexes are present at 42 days.

    • Electrical brain wave patterns can be recorded at 43 days. This is usually ample evidence that “thinking” is taking place in the brain.

    • The fetus has the appearance of a miniature baby, with complete fingers, toes and ears at 49 days.

    • All organs are functioning—stomach, liver, kidney, brain—and all systems are intact at 56 days.

    • By 20 weeks, the unborn child has hair and working vocal cords, sucks her thumb, grasps with her hands and kicks. She measures 12 inches.

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  39. kathy (kayms91) said

    Rj.. there ARE other choices… this article mentions a few… destruction and death should NOT be an option for any problem.
    Late Term Abortion – The situation
    I’m considering a late-term abortion. What should I understand before making this decision? My situation is hard and I’m trying to decide what to do.

    The first thing you should consider when deciding about late term abortion is that you are carrying a life inside of you. This may be an unwanted pregnancy. Or maybe your baby has been diagnosed with a defect or even an illness that will be fatal outside the womb, but I ask you to treat this baby like the life he/she is.

    Late Term Abortion – The procedures
    There are three general procedures of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions. The first and most popular is called D&E (Dilation and evacuation). Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These “pieces” of your baby will be removed one at a time. Vacuum aspiration is then used to ensure no tissue remains in the uterus.

    The second procedure is early induction of labor. This is very painful and intense for the woman and is rarely used as an abortion procedure.

    The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby’s leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby’s skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.

    Late Term Abortion – A Personal Story
    My name is Carey and I was born 4 months premature, weighing 1 pound, 1 ounce. As a baby, I was hospitalized for months and had heart surgery at only nine days old. I’m 22-years-old now and I have no major health problems. I survived! I was born at the size where many babies are aborted. In fact, many babies have been aborted that are far bigger than I was, which breaks my heart.

    I know that right now it may seem like your baby isn’t real yet. However, I’m living breathing proof that a baby born severely premature, and can grow up to be a healthy adult. I’m thankful every day for all the care that my parents gave me before and after I was born, and I’m thankful for all the people who have been there to pray for me, and support me throughout my life, and even before I was born.

    Whether you have realized it or not, you and your baby also have people who love you and can support you during this heartache. Sometimes I know it doesn’t look like it at all, but there are people who love you, and want you to live a life that doesn’t leave you with so much pain and regret. No matter what you have gone through in the past, no matter what decision you are facing now, there are people who want to help you, and want your baby to have the chance to live life.

    I am thankful for my life and I have a loving relationship with God. For me, loving does not mean judging or condemning. No matter what you have done in the past, through the love of God and His Son Jesus, you can find forgiveness and peace. Peace and help to get through what you are struggling with now, and to put the past in the past, and not chained to you.

    Romans 5:8-9 says that God sent His son to die for us, and that frees us from the chains of our sins, and our past. There is forgiveness, all we have to do is ask. We have hope and a future through God’s love, and that goes for you and for your baby.

    Late Term Abortion – Finding Help and Support
    When making a decision like whether to have a late-term abortion, I encourage you to find help and support.

    Perhaps your unborn child has a defect or will be born with an illness and you don’t feel like you can raise a child under these circumstances. Please know that there are organizations who can help you find adoptive parents so your child can grow up in a loving and caring home.

    Perhaps your unborn child is expected to die upon delivery. What a heartbreaking event to go through. Even if your baby dies in your arms, you will have the opportunity to meet your baby and lay him/her to rest in dignity.
    Above all, cry out to God, who is waiting to comfort you.

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  40. kathy (kayms91) said

    From Wikipedia: Late term abortions…
    United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there is no exact data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]

    Reasons for later abortion

    United States
    In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:

    71% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
    48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
    33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
    24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
    8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
    8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
    6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
    6% Woman didn’t know timing is important
    5% Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion
    2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
    11% Other

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  41. kathy (kayms91) said

    Late term abortions are rare??? read on…

    For what reasons are partial-birth abortions usually performed?
    Some opponents of HR 1833, such as NARAL and the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), have persistently disseminated claims that the partial-birth abortion procedure is employed only in cases involving extraordinary threats to the mother or grave fetal disorders. For example, NARAL President Kate Michelman wrote in a Scripps Howard News Service op ed published June 16, 1996, “Late-term abortions are only used under the most compelling of circumstances– to protect a woman’s health or life or because of grave fetal abnormality….nearly all abortions are performed in the first trimester.” PPFA said in a press release that the partial-birth abortion procedure is “done only in cases when the woman’s life is in danger or in cases of extreme fetal abnormality.” (Nov. 1, 1995)

    However, claims such as these are inconsistent with the writings and recorded statements of the three doctors who are most closely identified with the procedure: Dr. Martin Haskell, Dr. James McMahon, and Dr. David Grundmann.

    Reasons for Partial-Birth Abortions: Dr. Martin Haskell

    In his 1992 paper, Dr. Martin Haskell, who has performed over 1,000 partial-birth abortions, described the procedure as “a quick, surgical outpatient method that can be performed on a scheduled basis under local anesthesia.” Dr. Haskell, a family practitioner who operates three abortion clinics, wrote that he “routinely performs this procedure on all patients 20 through 24 weeks” (4 1/2 to 5 1/2 months) pregnant [emphasis added], except on women who are more than 20 pounds overweight, have twins, or have certain other complicating factors.

    For information on why Dr. Haskell adopted the method, the 1993 interview in Cincinnati Medicine is very instructive. Dr. Haskell explained that he had been performing dismemberment abortions (D&Es) to 24 weeks:

    But they were very tough. Sometimes it was a 45-minute operation. I noticed that some of the later D&Es were very, very easy. So I asked myself why can’t they all happen this way. You see the easy ones would have a foot length presentation, you’d reach up and grab the foot of the fetus, pull the fetus down and the head would hang up and then you would collapse the head and take it out. It was easy. . . . Then I said, “Well gee, if I just put the ultrasound up there I could see it all and I wouldn’t have to feel around for it.” I did that and sure enough, I found it 99 percent of the time. Kind of serendipity.

    In 1993, the American Medical News– the official newspaper of the AMA– conducted a tape-recorded interview with Dr. Haskell concerning this specific abortion method, in which he said:

    And I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range. . . . In my particular case, probably 20% [of this procedure] are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective.

    In a lawsuit in 1995, Dr. Haskell testified that women come to him for partial-birth abortions with “a variety of conditions. Some medical, some not so medical.” Among the “medical” examples he cited was “agoraphobia” (fear of open places). Moreover, in testimony presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee on November 17, 1995, ob/gyn Dr. Nancy Romer of Dayton (the city in which Dr. Haskell operates one of his abortion clinics) testified that three of her own patients had gone to Haskell’s clinic for abortions “well beyond” 4 1/2 months into pregnancy, and that “none of these women had any medical illness, and all three had normal fetuses.”

    Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse who observed Dr. Haskell use the procedure to abort three babies in 1993, testified that one little boy had Down Syndrome, while the other two babies were completely normal and their mothers were healthy. [Nurse Shafer’s testimony before the House Judiciary subcommittee, with associated documentation, is available on request to NRLC.

    Reasons for Partial-Birth Abortions: Dr. James McMahon

    The late Dr. James McMahon performed thousands of partial-birth abortions, including the third-trimester abortions performed on the five women who appeared with President Clinton at his April 10 veto ceremony. Dr. McMahon’s general approach is illustrated by this illuminating statement in the July 5, 1993 edition of American Medical News:

    “[A]fter 20 weeks where it frankly is a child to me, I really agonize over it because the potential is so imminently there. I think, ‘Gee, it’s too bad that this child couldn’t be adopted.’ On the other hand, I have another position, which I think is superior in the hierarchy of questions, and that is: ‘Who owns the child?’ It’s got to be the mother.'”

    In June, 1995, Dr. McMahon submitted to Congress a detailed breakdown of a “series” of over 2,000 of these abortions that he had performed. He classified only 9% (175 cases) as involving “maternal [health] indications,” of which the most common was “depression.”

    Dr. Pamela E. Smith, director of Medical Education, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Mt. Sinai Hospital, Chicago, gave the Senate Judiciary Committee her analysis of Dr. McMahon’s 175 “maternal indication” cases. Of this sample, 39 cases (22%) were for maternal “depression,” while another 16% were “for conditions consistent with the birth of a normal child (e.g., sickle cell trait, prolapsed uterus, small pelvis),” Dr. Smith noted. She added that in one-third of the cases, the conditions listed as “maternal indications” by Dr. McMahon really indicated that the procedure itself would be seriously risky to the mother.

    Of Dr. McMahon’s series, another 1,183 cases (about 56%) were for “fetal flaws,” but these included a great many non-lethal disorders, such as cleft palate and Down Syndrome. In an op ed piece written for the Los Angeles Times, Dr. Katherine Dowling, a family physician at the University of Southern California School of Medicine, examined Dr. McMahon’s report on this “fetal flaws” group. She wrote:

    Twenty-four were done for cystic hydroma (a benign lymphatic mass, usually treatable in a child of normal intelligence). Nine were done for cleft lip-palate syndrome (a friend of mine, mother of five, and a colleague who is a pulmonary specialist were born with this problem). Other reasons included cystic fibrosis (my daughter went through high school with a classmate with cystic fibrosis) and duodenal atresia (surgically correctable, but many children with this problem are moderately mentally retarded). Guess they can’t enjoy life, can they? In fact, most of the partial-birth abortions in that [McMahon] survey were done for problems that were either surgically correctable or would result in some degree of neurologic or mental impairment, but would not harm the mother. Or they were done for reasons that were pretty skimpy: depression, chicken pox, diabetes, vomiting. [“What Constitutes A Quality Life?,” Los Angeles Times, Aug. 28, 1996]

    Over one-third of McMahon’s 2,000-abortion “series” involved neither fetal nor maternal health problems, however trivial.

    In Dr. McMahon’s interviews with American Medical News and with Keri Harrison, counsel to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Dr. McMahon freely acknowledged that he performed late second trimester procedures that were “elective” even by his definition (“elective” meaning without fetal or maternal medical justification). After 26 weeks, Dr. McMahon claimed that all of his abortions were “non-elective” — but his definition of “non-elective” was very expansive. His written submission stated:

    “After 26 weeks [six months], those pregnancies that are not flawed are still non-elective. They are interrupted because of maternal risk, rape, incest, psychiatric or pediatric indications.” [emphasis added] [“Pediatric indications” was Dr. McMahon’s terminology for young teenagers.

    Reasons for Partial-Birth Abortions: Dr. David Grundmann

    Dr. David Grundmann, the medical director for Planned Parenthood of Australia, has written a paper in which he explicitly states that he uses the partial-birth abortion procedure (he calls it “dilatation and extraction”) as his “method of choice” for abortions done after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months), and that he performs such abortions for a broad variety of social reasons. [This paper, “Abortion After Twenty Weeks in Clinical Practice: Practical, Ethical and Legal Issues,” and associated documentation, is available from NRLC.]

    Dr. Grundmann himself described the procedure in a television interview as “essentially a breech delivery where the fetus is delivered feet first and then when the head of the fetus is brought down into the top of the cervical canal, it is decompressed with a puncturing instrument so that it fits through the cervical opening.”

    In the 1994 paper, Dr. Grundmann listed several “advantages” of this method, such as that it “can be performed under local and/or twi-light anesthetic” with “no need for narcotic analgesics,” “can be performed as an ambulatory out-patient procedure,” and there is “no chance of delivering a live fetus.” Among the “disadvantages,” Dr. Grundmann wrote, is “the aesthetics of the procedure are difficult for some people; and therefore it may be difficult to get staff.” (Dr. Grundmann also wrote that “abortion is an integral part of family planning. Theoretically this means abortions at any stage of gestation. Therefore I favor the availability of abortion beyond 20 weeks.” )

    Dr. Grundmann wrote that in Australia, late-second-trimester abortion is available “in many major hospitals, in most capital cities and large provincial centres” in cases of “lethal fetal abnormalities” or “gross fetal abnormalities,” or “risk to maternal life,” including “psychotic/suicidal behavior.” However, Dr. Grundmann said, his Planned Parenthood clinic also offers the procedure after 20 weeks for women who fall into five additional “categories”: (1) “minor or doubtful fetal abnormalities,” (2) “extreme maternal immaturity i.e. girls in the 11 to 14 year age group,” (3) women “who do not know they are pregnant,” for example because of amenorrhea [irregular menstruation] “in women who are very active such as athletes or those under extreme forms of stress i.e. exam stress, relationship breakup…,” (4) “intellectually impaired women, who are unaware of basic biology…,” (5) “major life crises or major changes in socio-economic circumstances. The most common example of this is a planned or wanted pregnancy followed by the sudden death or desertion of the partner who is in all probability the bread winner.”

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  42. Rj said

    Kathy, in closing, I must admit that I have a newfound utter disgust for your tactics. I am repulsed. If you are an agent of God or representative of Christianity, you have dearly failed me and others who would consider your lack of compassion and complete ignorance. It’s not your mission to mindfuck people using religion and “facts” in an extremists, grotesque manner. You MUST respect people’s decision to do as they may with their bodies. An unwanted child is…unwanted. An unwanted child, is a neglected child…an abused child..A forced birth…is inhumane…and still unwanted. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks about the availability of birth control or the option of celibacy, sterilization. People are poor. People are going to fuck. People are going to fuck. Children will be born. People will die. Babies will die. Children will die. Children are sick and starving. People must have a choice.

    The example you used above, with the child who survived…that is GREAT for that person in a situational that is only hypothetical at best. But you and others like you are terrorizing scared women. You are a terrorist, indeed. Abortion videos, abortion images…what next…suicide videos…9/11, inside the towers videos? If that is how you expect to appeal to people, you have FAILED.

    And who is your audience? Anyone I know, be it a small or large circle, would detest how you come across. People gravitate toward me because I provide guidance that is free from judgement and allow for people to make their own decisions. I can’t and won’t force someone to do what I would or wouldn’t do because each person’s circumstance is different. We all have different tools available to us at a given time and I can’t set someone up for failure if I cannot promise them that things will work out as I want them to. And I don’t make false promises.

    Regardless on whether you think it is murder, or what God thinks, aside from the fact that not everyone believes in God, and even if science happens to prove that life begins at this point or that point, it is THAT person’s body, THAT person’s decision. No one LOVES abortion. No one is PRO-abortion. It is just an option..an option that shouldn’t have to exist..but it does exist and given the prospect of things right now, it is a very attractive option. Create environments and solutions in which everyone can thrive, and abortion will cease to exist as a necessity. Until that point, keep the people on prayer, if you so desire, but forcing your way, your view, forcing birth…is a psychopathic lunacy. Many a poor and destitute person will tell you…there are worse things than death. YOU shouldn’t get to decide for anyone’s body. You make me feel sad for you, and other women who come across people like you. It is the ultimate tragedy

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  43. I am against Anti Abortion laws for one simple fact. This is actual truth as explained to me by an OBGYN doctor and reading the Florida Laws on Abortion. What everyone saying is Abortion= Murder. This is not true. Medical terminology and Legal terminology describe an Abortion as the early termination of a pregnancy. Medical Terminology takes it a step further. What is referred to on a hospital chart as a Natural Abortion equates a miscarriage. A Clinical Abortion is exactly what everyone is lead to believe the word Abortion means. In 48 or 49 states a late term Clinical Abortion is illegal, if it is not in a hospital setting with a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. A Viable Abortion is when labor is induced. What the doctors write and what they tell you is happening seems like two different things. But it is not. Every medical record must have medical terminology of the disease, procedure, and medication. Viable Abortions or induced labor are carried out to protect the child and mother. The child is then taken to a NICU for observation and care. Now for the reason why I am against Anti-Abortion laws therefore I must accept the good and the bad with this. The good truely outweighs the bad. We only hear the bad on the news. Just like Anti-Gay Marriage laws actually hurt domestic partnerships as a whole, A domestic partnership is also called the Commonweath Marriage in some states. Anti-same sex marriage bills are a threat to heterosexual couples that are in a domestic partnership. Most anti-same sex laws take away the spousal rights one would get in a domestic partnership. This effects heterosexual couples specificly elderly couples. If your domestic partner dies in most states with the anti-same sex marriage laws, then you do not get the benefits you used to before the anti-same sex marriage laws. Hetero and Homo sexual couples are effected. But no Pro anti-same sex marriage advocate will tell you this little tidbit of information. They focus on the bad. Just like no one will tell you that Medically a Viable Abortion equates to a induced labor and the child or children actually survive. *gasp* What happens if Abortions of all forms are banned? No induced labor to save your life and your unborn babies life. Even if the unborn child survives then that child will never have his or her biological mother. And the Gods forbid that mother was a single mother with two other kids. What happens then? Are you the person who pushed for Anti-Abortion laws going to say hey my lobbying killed your mother because I wanted Illegal Clinical Abortions to stop. So the Legal Abortions are also now illegal. Your mommy would have lived if this Anti-Abortion law was not in effect. I know this from personal experience. I had twins, the mother was not in the correct state of mind to okay the induced labor she was going to die if I did not give the okay. I asked why it was labeled as a Viable Abortion on the Chart. I can read medical charts I know medical terminology I was a medic in the Army and I worked as a Physicians Assistant at times. I know when to ask questions. You can say this happens here at this time, before the stricter Abortion Clinic Regulations. Look at the statistics from early to mid 90’s and look at them in this day and age. The Abortion Clinic Regulations have become stricter, more things are illegal. This is in the United States, do not cite statistics in other countries or around the world. Every country has different laws and some are more strict and some are not as strict. Look at this country, who cares what other countries are doing regarding this topic. It does not concern us we must view our own country. Screw everyone else. Look after our own citizens first before you go helping other countries. Make the place you live in better. I volunteer with an organization that wants stricter policing of Abortion Clinics. One where an evaluation is held. Where procedures and records are watched. To make sure the Clinic is following the laws of medicine and the state. That is how you can make a difference. Things are not as bad as everyone paints them, you see the small picture the minority. And this rant is talking about everyone. Look at the bigger picture knowing what you know now and tell me that Anti-Abortion laws will save more lives than end. Tell me that there is no chance a single mother can die leaving children that are already born. When something could have been done and her baby in the fifth, sixth or seventh month of the development cycle could have been saved kept in an intebator but still saved and both living. Tell me all of this would be true and I will call you a liar. I do not know the future I just know statistics, and facts. Statistically the things I am saying will happen. Because the term Abortion is a broader term than you realize. You want Anti-Abortion laws? Make sure they are only for Clinical Abortions, that is the kind of Abortion you are against.

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  44. Rj said

    E_E–I can appreciate the explanation you just provided. I haven’t dug deeper on that end because I already recognize that forced-birth people do not care about any other alternative. You all don’t know who I am, let alone what my research has been and what field I am in…I don’t want to prove anything to you using medical stats and the like. I appreciate that E_E has done so though, because I realize that with all the “info” that Kathy posted, some counter info needs to be revealed as well to the person that may just happen to be stopping by this site.

    Anyway, the U.S., as wonderful as the technology is and as important as medicine is, does not value HEALTH…only medicine=pharmaceuticals. We rank 42ND in infant mortality…waaaay behind most of Europe and some other countries that would surprise you. Our maternal mortality rate and our morbidity rates aren’t very good either. And of course, we don’t even have national health care. But people don’t want to see this bigger picture. Simple-mindedness/provinciality, are the true evils.

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  45. Oh I agree with that 99% we do have national healthcare. It is called medicaid and it sucks and the standards are too high. You have to make under $20,000 dollars a year to qualify but even without kids and a disablity it is hard to do so. Plus medicaid is not that good with prescriptions, eye care, dental, or any specialized type of doctor unless you have a disability or are pregnant. It is horrible but we do have it. For those who make over $20,000 a year with no employer based health care and cannot afford private health care those people are SOL. I do not think the future of the medical profession is in pharmaceuticals but in Nanotechnology, with nanotechnology we can irradicate viruses that are otherwise incurable. We could probably remove with more percision cancer cells before they are found in conventional ways. Nanomachines can be programmed for a variety of functions. Nanotechnology used in a medical sense probably would be a hot topic if there was enough research in it and it was not just theory. The whole revelation myth would be brought up and it would be worse than abortion.

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  46. dorian9 said

    we can never have national health care here because the pharmaceutical sector as well as corporate health providers like kaiser have too much $$ at stake. imagine if stem cell treatments were made available, like it is abroad, for cancer patients for example. the patient would be in remission or else be cancer free (if cancer is caught at an early stage) as a result. if you do the math and add up all the radiation and chemotherapy and steroid medication, doctor’s fees, et. al the pharmaceuticals and hospitals will lose billions. so what got in the way of our advancement in stem cell research, why are we so behind in this breakthrough treatment for cancer and above all, why is it that our survival rate for debilitating diseases so paltry compared to europe? it’s this backwards thinking morality based lobbyists with their self righteous loudspeakers, of course finding an ally in simple-minded george w. another old debate topic, separation of church and state..

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  47. Hopefully Obama does something about this and release the ban on American Stem Cell research. We need a leader that sees the value in stem cell research.

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  48. Lawman2 said

    hey i am a bit concerned that ota said he had a comment deleted. ? i don’t know why that would have happened. we never purposely delete a comment but we do delete spam…maybe it was sent to spam???

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  49. Lawman2 said

    abortion issue will soon be a closed issue because male birth control actually isn’t that far off rj.i think it is a bit funny you tell me where to donate my time and money knowing you have no idea what exactly i do donate my time and money too to begin with.

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  50. Rj said

    it will never be a closed issue until birth control is “perfected.” once men realize that it isn’t always as simple as poppin a pill or getting a shot..and the side effects start kicking in…maybe women’ll get some respect for the 50 years of hormones we’ve been through. i didn’t TELL you where to donate your time or money, it was a suggestion. if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. i know nothing other than what appears on the screen.

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  51. kathy (kayms91) said

    Rj… after skimming thru the posts I posted yesterday, to refresh my memory, and then reading the first line of your responding post… I have to report my reaction… I chuckled, grinned, and shook my head… and chuckled and grinned and shook my head some more… and continued to do so as I read thru the rest of your post. There really are no words that could express your response well enough… ignorance touches on it but I’m left still searching…Legally mentaly blind?.. I don’t know..

    You said:
    Kathy, in closing, I must admit that I have a newfound utter disgust for your tactics. I am repulsed. If you are an agent of God or representative of Christianity, you have dearly failed me and others who would consider your lack of compassion and complete ignorance.

    If I am ‘using’ this information as ‘tactics’ then I have to tell you I could have done this a long time ago… I resisted… I came across horrendous pictures that I could have posted a link to and I didn’t / haven’t in all of my abortion debating so far ( with the video being an exception but was available all thruout my abortion debating)… so there goes your accusations of me using ‘tactics’. YOU are using the common pro choice tactics of making these accusations against me!!! And you know what??? You freakin Liberals succeeded up until now!!! It worked for all this time that I have been debating this issue until now! The FACTUAL INFORMATION that I posted, I should have posted on day one!! This FACTUAL INFORMATION infuriates you and all pro choice people… TOO F**** BAD. You CANNOT be serious in calling me ignorant…ME?!!

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  52. kathy (kayms91) said

    Not done yet… didn’t mean to post that yet…

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  53. kathy (kayms91) said

    To continue…

    Since when is it wrong to post FACTS and SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE!!!! I guess at the same time it became ‘wrong’ for a person to declare that they believe that their view is the right one. Such Liberal CRAP!!! Such LIBERAL POISON!!

    You said:
    It’s not your mission to mindfuck people using religion and “facts” in an extremists, grotesque manner. You MUST respect people’s decision to do as they may with their bodies.

    You and all Pro Choice people are PROMOTING ignorance by insisting that this information not be made known… am I wrong??? NO!!! WTF… isn’t ignorance a bad thing???? Stop the hypocrisy! Please!!!

    And again… I do respect a person’s right to their personal choices…when it doesn’t infringe on someone else’s rights!! YOU must respect a person’s right to life!!!

    An unwanted child is…unwanted. An unwanted child, is a neglected child…an abused child..A forced birth…is inhumane…and still unwanted.

    Not true!! Have you ever heard of adoption?? These babies ARE wanted. You talk about compassion… compassion for the woman who doesn’t want to be inconvienienced for nine months? Come on now…give me a break…please… Pro Life compassion is much more justified and noble than that…. NO COMPARISON!

    People are poor. People are going to fuck. People are going to fuck. Children will be born. People will die. Babies will die. Children will die. Children are sick and starving. People must have a choice.

    So the statement I made, that death and destruction shouldn’t be an option, is obviously contended by you. You believe that death and destruction is a valid and acceptable choice to life’s problems… have you really thought that thru??? If you do, you will find that it goes against your Liberal beliefs for one, and against humanity for another!! I just don’t get it…

    But you and others like you are terrorizing scared women. You are a terrorist, indeed. Abortion videos, abortion images…what next…suicide videos…9/11, inside the towers videos? If that is how you expect to appeal to people, you have FAILED.

    And again… I’m a terrorist for posting the truth??? Stop your pro choice liberal HYPOCRITICAL tactics…
    Yes… I’m all for showing videos of suicides to people who are contemplating it… and tower videos to people who are contemplating a terrorist act… great idea Rj… Your arguing my points for me… thanks.

    And I am sorry if I have failed to help a woman understand all the facts before she makes her decision… a decision that cannot be reversed and she will have to live with for the rest of her life… You don’t / haven’t had much to say about that have you?? That very valid point is never addressed by Pro Choice people…NEVER… where’s the compassion there?? You have to know what damage that can do to a person mentally for the rest of her life… what do you have to say about that???

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  54. kathy (kayms91) said

    And now, all of you Pro Choice people can make your ungraceful exit… like you always have in the past…

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  55. Nicely done. Kay. Me I will make my graceful exit, and say nicely written.

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  56. kathy (kayms91) said

    And please consider this… this detailed factual information, do you think it is best for a woman to learn of this before she makes her decision or after she has the abortion?? Please think about that… by purposefully withholding this information beforehand.. do you honestly think you are helping these women in the long run?

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  57. obama the antichrist said

    kay that was VERY well said! I am like a proud parent 🙂

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  58. Both sides had detailed information. All of this information is available. They just have to look for it.

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  59. kathy (kayms91) said

    Thank you OTA! And EE too… I have to admire that exit…very graceful… although my ultimate wish would be this… that everyone who is pro choice would say ” maybe I do need to reconsider my view on abortion… maybe it is too high of a price to pay for the sake of this one particular “right”. Maybe having one’s “rights” infringed on is not the worst thing in the world…

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  60. ajlouny said

    You opened up Pandora’s box with this one!

    Like

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