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news and things sacred and irreverent put together by opinionated people.

Right to Life Movement Rallied by Freedom of Choice Legislation

Posted by lawman2 on January 23, 2009

The Freedom of Choice Act is umbrella legislation designed to lift barriers to access, including parental notification laws.

foca2WASHINGTON – Activists on both sides of the abortion question will congregate Thursday at the annual March for Life protest in Washington to debate the possible passage of the Freedom of Choice Act.

President Obama, speaking to Planned Parenthood while a candidate, said he would sign the legislation should it pass Congress, and his vow has energized all sides of the issue this year.

The FOCA as introduced to Congress in 2007, is umbrella legislation that aims to protect women’s health and their right to “to begin, prevent or continue a pregnancy.”

“FOCA has definitely energized the Maryland (anti-abortion) movement. We are receiving many more calls and inquiries to our Web site. We feel that the pro-life people are very concerned and ready to take action,” said Angela Martin, executive director of Maryland Right to Life.

The act is designed to eliminate the “threats that remain” to Roe v. Wade, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court abortion rights decision that prompted the annual March for Life. Those threats include possible reversal of the decision and “legislative or administrative policies that make abortion more difficult and dangerous to obtain.”

“It ensures … women, teenagers and poor women in particular, that these services will be available to them every day, every month and every year and not be affected by political whims,” said Frances Kissling, 65, former president of Catholics for Choice in Washington.

Consent laws that require minors obtain parental permission before obtaining an abortion aren’t designed to provide full knowledge, but to “scare” and misinform, she said.

The Freedom of Choice Act would allow just that — unencumbered reproductive choices, its advocates said.

Anti-abortion activists see it as a license to kill.

“FOCA would eliminate restrictions on abortion nationwide,” said Martin, that would include parental consent or waiting periods, for example.

“Waiting periods are there to protect women’s health and reflect on the consequences (of an abortion). The ‘restrictions’ are meant to protect (women),” said Martin.

Proponents of the bill say that it would provide access to family planning services, prevent unintended pregnancies and thus decrease the need for abortion.

FOCA does restrict abortions after the fetus is viable, or can live outside of the woman, which is approximately 24 weeks into the pregnancy, according to a 2008 study published by the Center for Fetal and Neonatal Medicine and the USC Division of Neonatal Medicine.

“The most important aspect of a woman’s right is to determine her own reproductive health. What’s the point of life, liberty and the other things if you have to buckle under someone else’s rule,” said Anne Hale Johnson, 85, who gave $5,000 to Planned Parenthood last year.

Meanwhile the size of the March for Life continues to grow, from 20,000 people in 1974 to 200,000, according to the group’s Web site, in 2006.

As long as abortion remains legal, its opponents will continue to fight, whether it’s to attack the root causes of poverty or drugs, or in the legal arena, they said.

Susan Gibbs, communications director for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, said: “We are going to continue to be present. We aren’t going to walk away from it.”

Abortion has “spiritual, mental and psychological” involvement, said Gibbs. “We’ve seen it.”

And Martin said: “FOCA violates the conscience rights of those that are opposed to abortion.”

By Lauren C. Williams

http://www.foxnews.com

Capital News Service contributed to this report.

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45 Responses to “Right to Life Movement Rallied by Freedom of Choice Legislation”

  1. tothewire said

    You just had to post this didn’t you?

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  2. Lawman2 said

    you asked me to help post news, and i am just posting news.IT IS NEWS.

    Like

  3. […] Right to Life Movement Rallied by Freedom of Choice Legislation … […]

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  4. Excellent law: who could argue with it?

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  5. oh, attack the root causes of poverty or drugs is it? Well they’ve done a bang up job so far……

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  6. Lawman2 said

    i believe this will open the door for eventually forcing hospitals that have refused before to do abortions,now to provide that service.it isn’t a great.teens are well known for making “wrong” choices,yet it is okay for them to make this kind?they can’t have anyother kind of elective surgery without their parents consent…so what the hell?

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  7. kathyorkay said

    Excellent point Lawman! The FOCA is the Pro Choice Movement’s move to preserve, once and for all, the ‘right’ to kill the unborn. That this Act will add EVEN MORE collateral damaged doesn’t matter… again, the woman’s “rights”, at all costs, are what reigns supreme…. “no man is going to tell me what to do with ‘my’ body!!”

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  8. dorian9 said

    FOCA Bill
    SEC. 2. FINDINGS.
    (1) The United States was founded on the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality. Such principles ensure that each individual is free to make the most intimate decisions free from governmental interference and discrimination.
    ………………………………………………………………………..
    human rights should reign supreme, that’s the ideology and practice every true and just democratic government must uphold. we must remember what this country was founded on. ever wonder why so many from other countries want to immigrate here, at any cost? why would any citizen want church or government telling him or her what is morally “right” or “wrong”? a wise man named thomas jefferson wrote a bit about separation of church and state in our constitution. why? maybe he was thinking of the european inquisitions and the salem witch “trials”?
    anti-choice advocates would like to see planned parenthood shut down. planned parenthood is there to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. less unwanted pregnancies = less probability of abortion.
    this organization has been around for over 90 years, providing care, educating and helping individuals and families. planned parenthood teaches responsibility.
    opposition to FOCA brings us back to proposition 8. the morality issue once again imposing itself on government and its people.

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  9. kathyorkay said

    But Dorian… you and others seem to keep forgetting that the 20 week old baby inside the mother is a separate person who also is entitled to their human rights. I am all for the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality, as I’m sure, all Pro Life people are, up until the point where it is infringing on someone else’s rights. Studies have proven that a 20 week old fetus does feel pain… why does that real, physical pain not count? Isn’t that what human rights are all about? Preventing human suffering and abuse? Why does their pain and suffering not matter? It does exist, as proven, so why? And this point has nothing to do with religion.

    But I have come to realize, from personal experience that at the moment of conception, a unique INDIVIDUAL PERSON is created. To terminate a pregnancy at any stage is throwing away that unique individual person, they will never get a second chance. It makes you wonder what could have been if these people were granted their rights. A cure for cancer maybe? A solution to world hunger?

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  10. Anonymous said

    Dorain you seem to forget that the wise man thomas jefferson wrote a LETTER about seperation of church and state… Kay is completely right

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  11. dorian9 said

    i stand corrected – wise man thomas jefferson wrote a bit about separation of church and state…
    anyway if ms. kay and fundamentalists/anti -choice proponents are completely right by law and government too then abortions will be made illegal s let’s build more prisons because there will be many women who will still be getting needed abortions. also an increase in teen suicides and death from botched back alley abortions. across the border clinics will make a lot of new business. do you like the picture?

    i like the nice tone of your comment, kay. it’s positive. i do see your point, i just have a different view. your first paragraph gets us back on the “when does life begin” debate so i’ll leave that be..
    “anonymous” sounds suspiciously like lawman. just a feeling. if i’m right then trust in clairvoyance…

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  12. Lawman2 said

    i would always use a name like thisisgodspeaking or itsmeagainmargret or something that leads back to me.i didn’t make that comment.most right wing conservatives are not for seperation of church and state…almost like someone just wanting to shoot themselves in the foot.

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  13. kathyorkay said

    Dorian… thank you for noticing my nice tone… tone intent doesn’t always come thru very well and you are right, my tone intent was positive and in response to your’s … but with that being said…

    I have to say that with the line of reasoning you gave…

    if ms. kay and fundamentalists/anti -choice proponents are completely right by law and government too then abortions will be made illegal s let’s build more prisons because there will be many women who will still be getting needed abortions. also an increase in teen suicides and death from botched back alley abortions. across the border clinics will make a lot of new business. do you like the picture?

    With this line of reasoning…then your answer to violent criminal offenders should be to put them to death.. right? because if not then the results are most definitely going to be more violent offenses. In other words.. you are advocating that death IS an acceptable solution to social problems…

    And you are also advocating that a person should not be held responsible for their choices…

    also an increase in teen suicides and death from botched back alley abortions.

    …that a person has no control over their actions or choices and should not be held responsible for these choices? Again, you are advocating that death is / should be the answer to this problem when there ARE other, life and pain sparing, ways to go.

    there will be many women who will still be getting needed abortions.

    Are these “needed” abortions because the woman feels she cannot raise a child or because of financial problems?
    Because there are OTHER choices besides abortion… adoption being the main one and also financial aid programs. If these options are not sufficient (up to par), then THAT is where we SHOULD be spending our energy (and money) to fix the problem… again, the death and destruction route should not be the way to go. Just ask all of those souls who didn’t get a chance to live their life… (if you are a spiritual believer ).

    The argument of the poor (both definitions) women getting back alley abortions… is a common FAULTY view and excuse.
    Life is all about making decisions… and our lives consist of the decisions that we make… to not hold someone accountable for decisions that THEY make is extremely erroneous… isn’t that what the penal system is all about? Why should we not hold someone accountable for these choices too? And I’m not advocating here to put the woman in prison.. I’m talking about the Liberal view / act of excusing someone for THEIR wrong choice. But at the same time, we must put forth a greater effort to help these women, their wrong decision ( that resulted in the unwanted pregnancy ) does not and should not excuse us as a society from helping them… to THOROUGHLY and accurately educate women about their options and strive and work to perfect those ‘happy ending’ options… ( the happiest ending possible for ALL people involved ).

    your first paragraph gets us back on the “when does life begin” debate so i’ll leave that be..

    Yes, that debate is very prominent here but, I will refer back to the point of the fetus feeling pain… with religion aside, at the very least, this should NOT be happening!! And it is… this makes us a barbaric society.. blindfolds don’t excuse us.

    And yes, Anonymous does sound familiar… Where are you guys? did you go on vacation??

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  14. Lawman2 said

    if abortion (killing a fetus) is murder when a man attacks a woman carrying his child…THEN it is murder when the woman carrying a mans child decides to kill the fetus herself.the law shouldn’t pander to the liberals on this one.this line of it is only murder depending on who does the killing of the fetus IS SUCH BULL SHIT!

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  15. Lawman2 said

    anyway this new law affects a parents right to know and consent…that bothers me.if a 14 year old child is allowed to make this “choice” without her parents consent or knowledge then it opens the door for children to be looked on by the law as adults.dangerous ground here we are treading on indeed.

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  16. Lawman2 said

    we had to leave town yesterday, and had a very busy week last week.sometimes that happens. 😦

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  17. dorian9 said

    so lawman we have all your aliases now? your God one hasn’t visited us in a while he must be busy. at the airport w/ the pda,wish I brought my laptop so I can enjoy reading/writing more. wb away 7 days bt will try and peek in.lots happening in the world!will miss my blog familyxo

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  18. Lawman2 said

    we will miss you too dorian!have a great vacatiion,or trip which ever it may be!

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  19. kathyorkay said

    I just came across this information…

    First though, I want to post what Dorian recently said about Planned Parenthood several posts up:

    anti-choice advocates would like to see planned parenthood shut down. planned parenthood is there to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. less unwanted pregnancies = less probability of abortion.
    this organization has been around for over 90 years, providing care, educating and helping individuals and families. planned parenthood teaches responsibility.

    And here is a quote from a recent commentary by Bill Keller.. great timing I thought…

    “We will never forget 9/11 and the 3,000 innocence people who died that day.
    We will always remember the horror of Hurricane Katrina and how it virtually
    destroyed one of the great cities in our country, killing hundreds and
    displacing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Yet, every 24 hours we
    legally slaughter 4,000 innocent babies and we never even give it a second
    thought! DID YOU THINK TODAY ABOUT THE FACT IN THE LAST 24 HOURS 4,000
    INNOCENT BABIES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY WERE SLAUGHTERED???

    The leading baby killing organization in the world is Planned “how to kill
    your baby” Parenthood. They just released their financial data for fiscal
    2005-2006 and here are the numbers. They brag that they performed a record
    264,943 murders during the year. During that time they received $345.1
    million in clinic income, $212.2 million in donations, and $305.3 MILLION
    DOLLARS FROM US TAX PAYERS!!! Their total income was $902.8 million with
    expenses of $847 million, leaving them a profit of $55.8 million dollars!!!
    What a great business they have!!! ”

    $55.8 Million in profit…Wow… I am not sure if Planned Parenthood is for profit or non profit… it appears that they are for profit…but how could they receive government aid then? They get to use our tax dollars and STILL get to make a profit??? as I was researching this, I came across the following which was really disturbing… ESPECIALLY the last paragraph…

    this article talks about how Planned Parenthood was caught “red handed” in a sting operation.

    here is a portion of the article…

    full article here.. http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/mar/08032802.html

    “The video documents a staffer breaking California law, which requires clinics to report sexual abuse, including statutory rape where the victim is under 16 years old. In the meeting between Rose and an anonymous PPLA employee, the staffer told Rose: “If you’re 15, we have to report it … If you’re not, if you’re older than that, then we don’t need to.” Rose says: “Okay, but if I just say I’m not 15, then it’s different?” The PPLA staffer responds: “You could say 16 … Just figure out a birth date that works. And I don’t know anything.” (see coverage: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/may/07051504.html )

    Most recently Planned Parenthood was caught on tape accepting the donation of an actor posing as a racist hoping to fund the abortion of an African-American baby. An actor playing a white racist was able to give money to the group for the specific purpose of eliminating a black baby who might someday rob the apparent donor’s son of a spot in college because of “affirmative action”. (see coverage: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/feb/08022802.html )

    The PPFA annual report proudly includes on its last page that the organization was “Founded by Margaret Sanger in 1916 – more than 90 years ago – as America’s first birth control clinic.” That is the same Margaret Sanger who once stated, “We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population.”

    Wow… what a twist this adds to our debate!!! This is unbelievable!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

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  20. tothewire said

    I noticed how they removed all the video and I have to admit by threatening a law suit if youtube didn’t remove the video does make the abortion clinics look even more guilty than they already were for these violations.

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  21. kathyorkay said

    How can they make youtube remove the videos? Blackmail? Obviously they are extremely concerned about negative publicity since a LARGE portion of their income is from donations.

    I had already seen the video anyway, along with millions, when Dateline did a story about it….

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  22. Lawman2 said

    we have the video on a post tothewire posted and i posted my picture in response of the pregnant lady demanding her right to kill her baby.

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  23. tothewire said

    https://tothewire.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/3015/

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  24. I would like to say that planned parenthood organizations do not push abortions they push adoptions first. In a planned parenthood counciling session they push adoption before abortion. A planned parenthood office has more adoption agencies than they have abortion agencies. Oh and life does not start at conception, I believe this is true. I believe life starts when the heartbeat starts. So the morning after pill is not abortion unless the heart is beating. But the morning after pill is also only 65-75% effective, and it takes longer than 24hrs for an egg to be fertilized to even start the splitting process so to those that says life begins at conception you also believe that male masterbation must be murder as well. Also may I point out that pro-life demonstrations do get violent. I got attacked and I was just walking to a fast food joint behind the clinic. Pro Choice demonstrations get just as violent and both sides are known to attack each other. But Pro Choice people do not fire bomb Pro life headquarters or abortion clinics. Those that will risk the lives of others to fire bomb an abortion clinic is just as wrong and is still murder just as well.

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  25. kathyorkay said

    I just went to a Planned Parenthood website. It took me quite awhile just to find the WORD adoption… it takes 3 clicks to get to any information on adoption…AFTER you find out where it even is. If it were true, that PP advocates adoption first, then I would think there would be a highly visible, easy to find, link. There isn’t.

    And also, why does PP fight so hard to keep from having to divulge / inform women of what actually goes on when an abortion occurs? They fight EVERY proposal by Pro life groups that might change a woman’s mind.

    This factual information, when learned about AFTER an abortion (on their own) will only do harm. Do they prepare / warn a woman about that?

    They try to appear non biased when showing both options but they are incredible biased towards the woman getting an abortion… they even WARN women that their are going to be ‘judgmental’ people who will try to sway them against abortion and even “crisis pregnancy centers” who are secretly against abortion…

    and at the end of the article they do acknowledge that some women will have long term serious problems from choosing abortion… KIND OF…
    Serious, long-term emotional problems after abortion are about as uncommon as they are after giving birth.

    I sure don’t believe that… especially when they don’t back up the statement with any numbers or studies… and what do they consider “serious”?

    They are more likely to happen for certain reasons — for instance, if a woman has a history of emotional problems before the abortion,

    Do they give any kind of phsychiatric tests before an abortion? Do they TELL women that this is a possibility when they come into a clinic?

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  26. kathyorkay said

    And yes, if you are non spiritual then your view is the most logical one… that life begins with a heart beat… but my point of view (spiritual) is that a unique individual life is created at conception…

    you said: so to those that says life begins at conception you also believe that male masterbation must be murder as well.

    uh…there’s no conception, no individual is formed without the egg also.

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  27. Lawman2 said

    copied this:
    When does the heart begin to beat?

    At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

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  28. Have you ever been to a planned parenthood office? I went to one to get a donated crib and some baby clothes when I moved to PA. There was like two pamphlets on abortion and fifty on adoption. Planned Parenthood may not be run by a diocese but they mean well. And really if you want to talk about psychological scarring in many cases the woman getting an abortion can justify what they did to themselves therefore there is less Post Menstral Depression. What no one speaks about is the health risks. Fact: A woman who has an abortion is just as likely to have overian complications as a woman who goes through a DNC. And the statistics are as such. 70% of DNC patients develop some kind of complications dealing with the Overies and the tubes. And out of that 70% about 1 out of 3 women getting a DNC procedure done have become sterile. Now this is something I have never seen a Pro-Life person throw out there. DNC’s are a valid medical procedure and it is not just done for abortion patients. The stats are two or three years old but I think they still apply. And kay really when a egg starts to divide it does the same thing every other cell in your body does. Including cancerous cells. Of course I can debate with you that electrical functions inside the body start alittle before or after the heart starts beating. The electrical functions that happen inside all of our body is part of what I believe makes up the soul. But I also do not believe the soul is completely an inbody thing but that is a completly different topic and is irrelevant and pointless to debate because niether of us can prove or disprove this.

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  29. kathyorkay said

    EE.. I think my evidence out weighs your evidence by a long shot… you went into one abortion clinic… the equivelant of “like 50” pamphlets on adoption was definitely not on their website. My quess is that a Pro Life group distributes those pamphlets to PP clinics and probably has to check everyday to make sure they are still there… or something to that effect…

    And I strongly dissagree with your view that Planned Parenthood “means well”. For one, if they truly cared about the woman, they wouldn’t sensor information from her when she is making her decision, again, a decision that cannot be reversed and the woman has to live with for the rest of her life!!

    Two, they would have more information on adoption available.

    Three, on their website they warn woman of the clinics who are against abortion…WHAT?? oooh the woman might change her mind and have her child… what an evil organization!!!

    Really, I wonder if the agenda that the founder of Planned Parenthood had is not STILL the agenda of today… it certainly looks that way when they are clearly pushing abortions over adoptions. Could Planned Parenthood be secretly run by someone who’s master plan is to rid society of ‘inferior’ races.
    Why else would they promote abortions so much? Why else would they want to sensor information when a woman is making such an important decision? It’s either that or of course money… or, more likely it’s both.

    Either way… it makes PP a sick organization…

    There is no way I will believe that the people who profit, run, work in abortion clinics ‘mean well’. These people see first hand what is going on… they know deep down inside that what they are doing is wrong but because of their pride, ego, stubborness and ignorance, they will never waver from their stance. These people are most definitely in a ‘war’. They are the kind who must ‘win’ at all costs and are not able to ever admit that they are wrong. Unfortunately a very common mind set…it’s the same kind of pride and ego that is so prevelant in our government.. that which continues to hold us back. Only the abortion war is a thousand times worse because the truly innocent are the victims. Sick is an understatement in describing the people who profit from, and push, this agenda when they have FULL and FIRST HAND knowledge.

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  30. Lawman2 said

    if e really believes life begins when the heart beats then there are a lot of dead babies out there even by his standards. the first heartbeat of a fetus is about 4 days after a woman misses her period.right before she goes in to murder her unwanted baby

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  31. Lawman2 said

    and that is what pro choice organizations don’t want women to know.

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  32. Lawman2 said

    e is talking about going into a planned parent hood building not an abortion clinic.same people behind the organizations but not the same door did he open.

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  33. kathyorkay said

    It seems to me that Planned Parenthood is first and foremost known as a place to go to to when you want to get an abortion… I know that they do other things but like Bill Keller said… they are the number one baby killing organization in the WORLD… that’s their specialty… so to me Planned Parenthood and abortion clinic are pretty much the same thing. And I saw nothing on their website that shows that they have any kind of adoption program / aid or are affilitated with any adoption agency. That’s not a very good way to promote / push adoption. On the other hand… they are ready and waiting to suck your live baby right out of you…and take your money in return.

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  34. Even though yes by my standards there are still a lot of dead babies, but also not all Planned Parenthood offices, which are not clinics nor do they provide anything more than just a pregnancy exam. Of which medicaid only accepts pregnancy test results from a Planned Parenthood office or from a medical facility. Also Planned Parenthood does council you about other options for the baby. But most women make the choice to have an abortion rather than put the baby through adoption. So let us say that 80 or more percent of the people that goto a planned parenthood office go there to see about getting an abortion and have thier minds made up, no one can force those women to do something they do not want to do. But on that model if a majority of your clients refuse the other services that you offer you can imply that your clients that one service. In this case Abortion. So even if you make more money with adoption, you get more profits out of abortion and so you push that on your website. The point is that an organization cannot be held accountable for giving the women the information to have an abortion. It is the individuals decsion, the individuals that need to be accountable.

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  35. kathyorkay said

    Most women already have their minds made up to get the abortion because it’s the ‘easiest’ choice. Planned Parenthood is guilty of capitalizing on their vulnerable situations. Do they care that it’s the woman, not them, who has to live with the decision for the rest of her life?? No. Again, if they did, then they wouldn’t fight proposals by Pro Life groups that would inform the woman of ALL the facts BEFORE she goes thru with her decision.

    I’ve been in this situation and even though I have always been against abortion, I initially, momentarily, did ‘make up my mind’ to have one even though I knew that it was not the right thing to do. The decision was made out of desperation… of being scared and confused… it’s the worst time to have to make such an important decision.
    A woman NEEDS counceling (unbiased) and all the information possible to help her make one of the most important decisions of her life. If Planned Parenthood really cared, they would make sure the woman is getting these things before she makes her irreversible ‘choice’.

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  36. Planned Parenthood is a business. Like any business they act like they care and yet they do not. I never said they cared, I said they have good intentions. For example Wal Mart does hinder small business in all areas. Because of thier low prices etc. Wal Mart as a business does not care about you the consumer. They care about maximizing thier profits and use marketing tactics to do so. In those marketing practices they make the consumer think they care for the environment, the community, etc. When in truth they will say and do whatever it takes to achieve thier goal. Which in business that is to maximize thier profits. Planned Parenthood is the same way. If more people went to them for adoption they would advertise that more on thier site. That being said, the Planned Parenthood mission statement is so broad that if Abortions ever became illegal, they can switch gears. But I do not know if you went to the actual planned parenthood site because there really was not a lot of information on abortions. Just a basic overview of what it is. Here is the excerpt from the site.

    “Only you can decide what is best for you. But we are here to help. A staff member at your local Planned Parenthood health center can discuss abortion and all of your options with you and help you find the services you need.”

    Notice the phrase ALL OF YOUR OPTIONS. That implies more than just abortion. But of course if you look at the other things on the site it says the same thing basically taking out the word abortion and putting in whatever topic is applicable. They make money either way. Adoption agencies usually pay third party agencies like Planned Parenthood, more money than what they would make on an abortion. Planned Parenthood also provides services like family planning and how to take care of your child. They also provide vasectomies and will fix a woman if she cannot or does not want to have children. All of these services come at a cost. Even counciling costs you as much as a trip to the doctor’s office would. Planned Parenthood is a business and in that they want to maximize profits. Providing from family counciling to emergency contraceptive, you will pay for the service they will get thier money. After they get your money you will find that they suddenly do not care. Just like many churches are not really interested in your soul, just that you agree with the preacher and what comes out of his mouth with no question. And give money to the collection plate. But this is the minority. The evidence is there, which is why I do not trust flashy churches. I trust the old timey run down looking churches. The small community churches where everyone knows everyone and is actually willing to help the community. Planned Parenthood provides good services other than abortion. Which is my point. That does not mean that I trust the organization. Just that they are not evil.

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  37. kathyorkay said

    I don’t trust the flashy churches either… That’s one of the things that Bill Keller has been complaining about the most lately… that we have to many churches / pastors who only care about their collection plates. They won’t say anything that anyone might find offensive because that will equate to less money. Bill Keller WILL address EVERY subject that, according to the Bible, is against God’s will. That’s usually a good sign that a pastor is sincere. And he does struggle every month to meet his expenses.

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  38. tothewire said

    Great back to Bill Keller? You lost all accountability with me when you brough that liar into the debate

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  39. tothewire said

    Abortion clinics may have a lot of answering to do about taking bribes to preform abortions against a womans choice. I feel that some abortion clinics are corrupt, little doubt about that.

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  40. tothewire said

    It is sad and not fair or right that they keep doing things that are illegal and be protected by our government. I don’t think abortions should be illegal, but I do feel the abortion clinics should be held to the same legal standard that any other business would be. AND THEY ARE NOT.

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  41. kathyorkay said

    I agree TTW with most of what you just said.. except for abortions shouldn’t be illegal… I wish, at the very least, that the abortions would be limited to the point where a fetus can feel pain… why isn’t it? Because the Pro Choice people have faught and faught every step of the way…they must not only win the war but every battle also… they only care about one thing only…their rights, not anyone elses ( the unborn child). sorry, just ranting some more….

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  42. Lawman2 said

    since when shouldn’t murder be illegal???

    they will never admit that the babies they kill need pain killers, in doing so they admit murder.

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  43. kathyorkay said

    Exactly Lawman… again, Pro Choice people are presented with a choice… stop the pain and suffering of another human being or… my agenda… pain and suffering.. my agenda… only a narcisist would / could go with their agenda over halting the pain and suffering of others and that’s exactly what the radical Pro Choice people are … narcisists. How could they not be? I’m still trying to figure out how Pro Choice people, who are willing to accept the pain and suffering of others in exchange for the preservation of their ‘rights’ cannot be narcisistic or even worse… sociopaths. Still waiting for one of them to explain this to me…
    Notice how the Pro Choice people ALWAYS bail on this topic… they NEVER last… even I, a Pro Life person, could still argue their point in theory.. but of course, the Pro Life view, the correct view, will always have the better argument.

    If you can no longer argue your view, then maybe it’s time to RECONSIDER your view… it’s really a basic, elementary kind of idea… just plain old common sense.

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  44. Lawman2 said

    and to think you guys all say i am a narcisist…lol

    yes kay you’re right.deep down i think people know abortion is murder and WRONG but they don’t want to be accused of being closed minded.pro choice people are by far the most closed minded people you can talk to.they immediatly claim the pro life organization is at war with women,and will never admit they are the cause of such said war.war to save lives maybe,but i have never talked to a pro life person who wishes ill to any woman fooled into an abortion except for myself.they need to go to prison.hell if someone tried to commit suicide they would be put away and on drugs to FIX them.can’t legally harm yourself,but you can legally kill babies.

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  45. kathyorkay said

    Yes.. that horrible stigma of being closed minded… they only have their fellow Liberals to thank for that… the Liberals have been so successful in convincing society that it’s the worst thing ever to be accused of, that people will actually turn the other way while babies are being killed in large numbers on a daily basis… a perfect example of Liberal poison. The fear of being accused of closed mindedness is NOT an excuse to look the other way and not only let it continue, but SUPPORT it.

    And the concept (truth) of these people being the most closed minded of all (in response to the fear of being accused of that “horrible” liberal offense), while, at the same time, accusing others of being closed minded… is what??….that social ill we know as REVERSE IGNORANCE!!!

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