Busted Liar of the Day – Betsy McCaughey, Creator of ‘Death Panel’ Myth
Posted by dorian on August 22, 2009
‘Death Panel’ Myth Creator Betsy McCaughey Resigns From Medical Board
by Matthew DeLong – The Washington Independent 8/21/09 4:13 PM
Betsy McCaughey — an outspoken proponent of the myth that Democrats’ health care reform proposals will lead to the creation of “death panels,” as well as a former lieutenant governor of New York and adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute — has stepped down from her position as a director of Cantel Medical Corp., which bills itself as a “leading provider of infection prevention and control products in the healthcare market.”
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bettyslocombe said
Do you think after a year or two these shameless people will back off, or will they just keep going after him as they did with Clinton? I wouldn’t mind so much if the conservative extreme over there said honestly ‘We think that it is so important to keep government out of everything that if that means poverty sickness and social chaos, so be it. We all seem to be quite wealthy, so we will keep building more prisons and higher walls around our gated communities to keep the consequences of our principled stand at arm’s length’
Oh, what’s that? They do say that? Devil take the hindmost? Or is it Antichrist take the hindmost?
Kay: it’s no good being a nice person and thinking that health care should be universally available if you support people who
despise the very idea of equity or social justice and laugh up their sleeve every time you jump on the latest weird rumour they have started.
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bettyslocombe said
P.S. Dorian: I have been reading those spam comments: wow. Much more than just a troll: completely unhinged.
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kay~ms said
You know what conservatives are guilty of? Using buzz words and that’s it. Death Panel…okay, lets call it something softer… a panel of Obama’s officials that will get to decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t. It doesn’t change a thing. If there is rationed healthcare there will be a panel to decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t. Add with a presidential healthcare adviser who supports a “curve system” that helps decide who is the most worthy to get this limited treatment, you have a DEATH PANEL. Obama’s administration has made socialistic moves on the auto industry, the banking industry and now the healthcare industry. Having the say on whether a person lives or dies is the ultimate control.
Liberals keep calling these issues “weird and crazy rumors” (and also call people the same )and it makes you guys guilty of cheap manipulations.. the very kind you are accusing Obama’s opponents of.
Please, if you cannot answer my questions about why Obama is spending so much money to NOT show his birth certificate and how this country is going to avoid government panels to decide who will get healthcare and who won’t because of limited funds then please stop calling these things rumors.. you have no basis for doing so.
And please don’t tell me that we will have enough money to avoid death panels because Obama’s monetary incentives (in the healthcare bill) will entice doctors to convince the elderly to die early…. that answer won’t suffice.
And like I told Dorian, it’s not a simple as “don’t let the greedy uncaring capitalists win”. It’s the Obama administration that is responsible for putting out a reasonable bill. They don’t get to put out whatever they want and then accuse those that are justifiably scared of it as “uncaring, greedy and ignorantly manipulated”.
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obama the antichrist said
see the health care does need reform but i want something to pass that is actually well thought out and read through by everyone voting on this bill. i dont want a rush on this. things could back fire and make this country even worse. this takes time. not even a year has obama taken office and he wants to change everything things do need changing but Rome wasnt built in a day. and yes govt needs to stay outta things. the poor hate the police and the rich hate the IRS and everyone hates the BMV.
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bettyslocombe said
Could you please quote here the section of the bill where it says that Health care will be rationed by Government panels, and these panels will allow or encourage elderly people to die by refusing them treatment?
The thing about rationing is that everyone gets equal access, anyway: during the war in England, people’s health actually improved because the people who used to be half starved now had a minimum level of nutrition.
The limited funds issue is a furphy: there is rationing now: millions of people are already being denied healthcare. If the new system results in an increase in the overall number of people being treated, it is better, from a utilitarian standpoint.
Could it be a coincidence that the elderly are less likely to vote for Obama anyway, and that they are already fully covered by the state anyway, so have nothing to gain , and much to fear if their fears can be played on?. Of course if it had been left up to the conservatives there would be no Medicare, and they would have been dying in poverty and sickness for the past forty years already.
Or am I wrong? It’s not my country; what would I know?
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bettyslocombe said
Oh by the way
‘Obama’s administration has made socialistic moves on the auto industry, the banking industry and now the healthcare industry.’
I don’t think propping up industries that were about to go tits up because of their own greed and stupidity is very socialistic: it’s strange how no one ever minds industries that make no money (railways, steel and mining in Britain in the forties) being nationalised, until those industries are no longer socially important (railways steel and mining in Britain in the eighties) and then they are eviscerated, asset stripped and handed back to the market.
‘The healthcare industry’It’s an industry: that’s the problem.
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kay~ms said
Betty said: “Could you please quote here the section of the bill where it says that Health care will be rationed by Government panels, and these panels will allow or encourage elderly people to die by refusing them treatment?”
So you’re saying that if it doesn’t explicitely say it then it won’t happen? I can tell you that it doesn’t say that it won’t happen. The problem is that this bill doesn’t adequately explain where the additional money that is needed is going to come from to cover all these people.
Here’s a recent example of rationing in Canada…
These panels will determine who gets treatment and who doesn’t. The groups that don’t will have a higher death rate.
With the elderly, an additional problem is the monetary incentive to doctors to discuss with their patients if they want to prolong their lives in certain situations. Proponents claim it is voluntary and therefore completely innocent. Problems: Doctors can initiate these talks and they are actually paid to do so by Obama’s plan. Apparently the only way it is actually voluntary is if the patient gets up and walks out. They can formulate a document right there and have the patient sign saying that they do not want to receive certain medical care to extend their lives. There are no mandatory waiting periods for this very important decision like say when you buy a house (in some situations). And, this part of the bill is in the section about controlling heathcare costs. That pretty much says it all right there. Obama’s healthcare bill targets the elderly to control heathcare costs. While I can understand the possitive side to having the elderly discuss this particular matter, Obama is going about it the wrong way. The socialist way. I’m sure his Health Policy Advisor Ezekeil Emanuel with his “Complete Lives System” that rates the value of a person’s life has his hand in this.
You said: “The limited funds issue is a furphy: there is rationing now: millions of people are already being denied healthcare. If the new system results in an increase in the overall number of people being treated, it is better, from a utilitarian standpoint.”
No it’s not a “furphy”, I think… there’s another one of those strange words that I do not know…
One big difference is that with Obama’s plan it is giving control of our lives to the government in a very socialistic way. A government with an advisor who supports a “Complete Lives System”. People are getting treatment now, even illegal aliens. They are not denied emergency care. And we have medicaid for the poor and medicare for the elderly. We just don’t know if it’s going to be better with Obama’s plan. He needs to present a better one.
You said: “Could it be a coincidence that the elderly are less likely to vote for Obama anyway, and that they are already fully covered by the state anyway, so have nothing to gain , and much to fear if their fears can be played on?.”
So, now you’re saying (like Dorian) that we should just accept Obama’s hastely thrown together socialistic plan because if we don’t then the evil manipulating republicans will get their way?
You’re saying that there are actually people who manipulate to get what they want? No way.
You said: “Of course if it had been left up to the conservatives there would be no Medicare, and they would have been dying in poverty and sickness for the past forty years already.
Or am I wrong? It’s not my country; what would I know?”
There would have been something else… I can’t imagine the same group of people who are against ending the lives of the unborn would not care about the elderly. It wouldn’t happen.
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dorian said
if the right wing mobs are so against state funded health care (they don’t want a ‘socialist’ government, they say) then it’s assumed that they are against the state funded medicare and would seek to abolish that too, right? how come medicare is not being protested then? it’s a socialistic government health program.
a significant percentile of personal bankruptcies are due to medical and hospital expenses in this country.
try getting medical insurance coverage if you have an existing medical condition. it’s obvious that conservatives don’t want any reform. they’ve blocked every effort starting with the clinton administration.
really the democrats should stop being so democratic and just ignore the republicans that simply just want to veto everything but not come up with any ideas of their own. just vote the damn bill in, they can thank obama later. why try so hard to appease this minority who is obviously not contributing to any progress whatsoever. i really won’t make a good diplomat. i’m tempted to post my eugenics article, but then my ‘liberal’ reputation will surely be compromised. hehehheh
too bad i deleted some of the better troll posts. andy gave princess a great idea for a halloween treat for all of you. yes, we have the adkob ‘super trolls’. troll 2 really out there, huh?
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dorian said
the ‘death panel’ is exactly like bush’s ‘weapons of mass destruction’ – completely fabricated to manipulate
people’s minds and to justify right wing agendas. ‘death panels’ to incite fear. ‘weapons of mass destruction’ = drop the bombs on iraq before they do! just the excuse junior needed to play war.
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bettyslocombe said
How about this, from
http://www.enewspf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9627:those-death-panels-really-do-exist&catid=88888891&Itemid=88890121
‘Despite the coverage allotted to debunking the right-wing “death panel” smear, the bigger picture remains intact. Americans face real death panels from their own health insurance providers. Rather than simply debunking the right’s false talking point, the media should have gone one step further and pointed out that health insurance companies make life-and-death decisions every day when they decide what they are willing and not willing to cover.
Largely lost in the media discussion surrounding health insurance reform is the reality of the status quo — you know, why we need reform in the first place.
Back in June, the evening news broadcasts on ABC, CBS, NBC, and PBS ignored a congressionalhearing on insurance companies’ practice of investigating the medical histories of people who become ill and submit claims for expensive treatments, and then rejecting those claims on the grounds that those individuals had pre-existing conditions. The goal is quite simple. Find something — anything — and cancel or deny coverage for needed, potentially life-saving treatment. Why save a life when you can save a buck?
Robin Beaton, a former policyholder, testified in the hearing that she had been subject to this very practice. A retired registered nurse, Beaton’s dermatologist had mistakenly indicated that she may have been suffering from a pre-cancerous skin condition. Soon after, she was diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer. A few days before her scheduled double mastectomy, Blue Cross launched an investigation into her health records going back five years, convinced she was hiding a serious pre-existing condition.
Many Americans have stories just like Beaton’s. Congress ultimately concluded that three major American insurance companies rescinded 19,776 policies for over $300 million in savings over five years, a number that Wendell Potter, a former senior executive at CIGNA health insurance company, said “significantly undercounts the total number of rescissions” by the companies.
It’s not to say that the media ignore all stories like Beaton’s; they don’t. The modern media are in the drama business. Too often, media of all stripes characterize this important policy debate as a “he said, she said” over the government’s role in health care, something that conservatives no doubt relish, and in the process, they fail to paint a picture of the way things currently exist.
This practice plays not only with the health of too many Americans, but with the health of modern journalism as well. We can hardly solve this crisis if we aren’t being told the whole story.
Death panels are real. They do exist. Your own insurance provider could be in on it. And it’s time the media said so.’
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princessxxx said
if everyone would watch the great lesbian “Rachel Maddow’,
she discusses these topics everynite, and exposes the fraud in corporate run health insurance.
she’s been talking about betsey since sarah palin first started talking death panels.
kay, you are citing glenn beck, the man you say is a member of a satanic cult? wazzup with that? why you listenening to him? listen to the lesbian, not the morman.
it turns out gerhardt is completely insane. so common these days. good luck with that.
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kay~ms said
ahh… you got me Princess. I have been watching Glenn Beck and I have been enjoying him! He is an excellent (and amusing) exposer of liberal hypocrisies and faults. I won’t deny that he’s still annoying at times though. AND.. I won’t deny that as a Mormon he is a liar as Bill says. My respect for him is severely limited because of his Mormon status. That youtube video of him promoting mormonism was a joke. I kept wondering where the mission impossible music was and then I remembered that was Tom’s video I was thinking of where he was promoting scientology.
I have to confess, my tv is tuned to CNN most of the time but I have been watching Fox news a little more these days… they’re definitley more thorough about reporting the truth about Obama’s bill. I watch CNN mostly because they seem to be the better quality news channel. Sometimes I would find myself comparing the other news channels to the equivelant of the National Inquirer. But I go nuts when CNN’s bias is showing. “Fair and Balanced”.. there is no such thing with any of these channels.
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kay~ms said
You guys are STILL not getting it… you keep trying to convince me that what we have now is broken. I agree! Have you all ever heard of the saying “jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire”?
Yes, there are people now who are being refused medical care, and yes, you can call them Death Panels. But you (both) are completely missing the point. Your extreme liberal thinking minds are really showing here… neither of you is acknowledging AT ALL the very real threat of socialism. So I must conclude that neither of you thinks that there is anything wrong with socialism. Let me explain it this way…
Those people who are not getting the care thru their insurance company now, at least, had a choice in what health care company to go with. And they do have other choices now, granted not very good ones. But with Obama’s socialistic plan, with all of his socialist minded advisors contributing (see Complete Lives System http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,537700,00.html ) it is a very real possibility that we would only have ONE choice. And if the government refused treatment it would be a death sentence. There would have been no choice at any time. THE GOVERNMENT HAS COMPLETE CONTROL! With a “Complete Lives System” firmly in place! It is becoming obvious that you guys don’t see a problem with this or you’re just narrow minded, blinded “Obamites” who just automatically believe that anyone who disagrees with Obama is racist and / or greedy capitalists and / or ignorantly manipulated idiots. Two words are now coming to mind.. what are they??? ….REVERSE IGNORANCE!
Here’s an article about a town hall meeting recently in my area. While I will admit, there was a “mob” mentality that I didn’t like, some REAL personal concerns were noted. These people are NOT racists, greedy capitalists OR ignorantly manipulated… they are legitimately concerned!
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090821/ARTICLE/908211055/2107/BUSINESS?Title=Health-proposal-s-critics-find-voice-at-local-forum
Also I want to mention ( to counter the obvious bias in this article) that the Sarsota Herald Tribune is owned by the New York times.
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kay~ms said
In the spirit(test)of honesty I would like to hear from all of the people who think that we should just automatically accept Obama’s Bill what you think of the “Complete Lives System” that Obama’s Health Policy Advisor Ezekeil Emanuel advocates… is it socialistic or not???
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obama the antichrist said
Kay: You’re saying that there are actually people who manipulate to get what they want? No way.
i had to laugh…politics is all bout networking and manipulating people to get what they want. like nancy pelosi (or any speaker no matter the party) will go to a senator and say if you vote this way we will vote on your bill and fund your project and all that…complete manipulation. its politics gotta love it 😀
now we need to stop basing our opinion on people by what they believe. athiest mormon christian doesnt matter its bout your politcal views. i am a christian but i dont care if gays marry. im not gay im not going to get married to a man but i wont stop people from being in love. its not christiany to believe in same sex marriage. so judge me on the fact that i believe same sex marriage is ok not on that i believe in God.
now on the bill.
betty: Why save a life when you can save a buck?
insurance company is a business…businesses are only in business to make money and become wealthy. unless it is nonprofit and only accepts donations. its called capitalism. nothing illegal about it. those CEOs are smart individuals thinking of a way to make alot of money
betty: Congress ultimately concluded that three major American insurance companies rescinded 19,776 policies for over $300 million in savings over five years
how many of those were obesity related or tobacco related? (those will not be covered in the bill)
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bettyslocombe said
Actually if you read Emanuel, or about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel_J._Emanuel
you’ll see how he’s been misrepresented. He is examining the ethical philosophical issues involved in allocating very scarce resources like organs and vaccines, not endorsing any particular view or a ‘complete lives’ policy:
“As far as rationing goes, it’s nothing I’ve ever advocated for the health system as a whole, and I’ve talked about rationing only in the context of situations where you have limited items, like limited livers or limited vaccine, and not for overall health care.”
Emanuel said that his words were selectively quoted, and misrepresent his views. He said, “I find it a little dispiriting, after a whole career’s worth of work dedicated to improving care for people at the end of life, that now I’m ‘advocating euthanasia panels.'” Emanuel spent his career opposing euthanasia and received multiple awards for his efforts to improve end of life care. Emanuel said, “It is incredible how much one’s reputation can be besmirched and taken out of context” and “No one who has read what I have done for 25 years would come to the conclusions that have been put out there.”
Anyway you guys sort it out: we have our own problems: our ‘socialist’ government is nowhere near socialist enough.
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Princessxxx said
it’s ok that bill calls glenn beck a liar. since bill is a liar, too,
it makes perfect sense.
they are competing in the same forum. for money.
seriously, though, bill should stay out of the politicking.
especially this last video questioning obamas legitmacy to be president.
that has nothing to do with “spiritual matters”.
it’s crazy kay that you think beck is a satanic cult member, yet follow him too.
your arguments make no since, especially when you use people that you call liars to back up your arguments.
it’s crazy like this: gerhardt warned me to fear for my life as hors is some international something or rather that exploits betty. (or maybe even is betty?) anyway, apparently, the end is “near”, so we should get ready.
i just knew something radical was happening on this website. 🙂
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Princessxxx said
one more thing, it really is impossible to keep peoples beliefs out of discussing politics,
particularly when their politics are based entirely on their beliefs.
i.e. your name Obama the Antichrist. you have the name of our president (political)
adjoined with the most feared man in the world to christians. (religion).
another example would be the bush administration, or michelle bachmann.
ann coulter, she is a christian that bashes everyone in the name of politics.
she is a skank whore by the way. (alledgedly)
so that is where i get my starting point.
gay marriage, i’m going to have the constitution amended so i can marry my car.
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dorian said
right on, ota. all is fair in love, war, business and politics. there’s always manipulation going on there. the accepted word for manipulation is ‘strategy’. whoever has the best strategy wins.
yeah, p – i read all our lives are in danger. the gerhadt even suspects hors and betty are one. the plot thickens.
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kay~ms said
Betty..
“A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have….” Gerald Ford
Good luck with that!
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Hors Service said
Exact Kay. So let’s not put everything in the hands of the state, shall we? Just what we don’t want to be put in the hands of profit-based organisations. Like healthcare, for example.
Kay, it works (more or less) in France, and France is not a dictature.
Are you telling me the first power of the planet can’t manage it?
huhu, among my friends I’m the right-winged guy, and here I’m called socialist^^ Sure, it depends on the reference point…
What if it was socialist, but STILL a good idea?
100% Capitalism is no good, as is 100% Communism.
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kay~ms said
Betty said:
Actually if you read Emanuel, or about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel_J._Emanuel
you’ll see how he’s been misrepresented. He is examining the ethical philosophical issues involved in allocating very scarce resources like organs and vaccines, not endorsing any particular view or a ‘complete lives’ policy:
Well Betty, this is what I found on the link that you posted up above…
In 2009, Govind Persad, Alan Wertheimer and Ezekiel Emanuel co-wrote another article on a similar topic, “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” in the journal The Lancet.[23] The article advocates a health allocation system termed the “complete lives system”. The authors said,
“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
“WE RECOMMEND AN ALTERNATIVE SYSTEM- THE COMPLETE LIVES SYSTEM…”
You said (quoting Emanuel):
“As far as rationing goes, it’s nothing I’ve ever advocated for the health system as a whole, and I’ve talked about rationing only in the context of situations where you have limited items, like limited livers or limited vaccine, and not for overall health care.”
This is such a ridiculous statement (and argument). Who WOULD advocate rationing?? No one wants it.
Glenn Beck:
“I want to make it very clear: What these people are talking about is how to ration in case of an emergency shortage — shortage of kidneys, hospital beds or flu vaccine.
What we all need to remember is that universal health care creates another shortage: a shortage of money. And when we are out of money, these are the people making the rules governing your health care.”
Logic dictates that if this is the guideline (“The complete lives system”) advocated by Obama’s adivisors for “limited items”, then, when we have limited funds for “overall health care” the same guidelines will be followed.
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kay~ms said
Hors said: “Exact Kay. So let’s not put everything in the hands of the state, shall we? Just what we don’t want to be put in the hands of profit-based organisations. Like healthcare, for example.”
Oh Hors, if only it were that simple. The problem is giving control (of health care in this instance) to ONE organisation. ESPECIALLY when there is a threat of socialistic guidelines being implemented.
You said: “Kay, it works (more or less) in France, and France is not a dictature.”
That is one of the major debates… does it work (more or less) better than what we have now?
And also, does your president have health advisors who promote socialistic guidelines in the event of the necessity of rationing like Obama does?
Again, it’s just not that simple.
All I’m asking here is that the pro Obama liberals here stop making manipulative and unjust accusations against everyone who isn’t immediately and unconditionally accepting Obama’s plan.
Stop trying to divert the attention away from what needs to be done here… addressing what the Bill ACTUALLY says / will mean if implimented.
You said: “100% Capitalism is no good, as is 100% Communism.”
I very much agree with this.
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kay~ms said
P, you said: “it’s crazy kay that you think beck is a satanic cult member, yet follow him too.
your arguments make no since, especially when you use people that you call liars to back up your arguments.”
Your confusion is understandable… let me explain… first, I wouldn’t say that I “follow” Glen Beck. I just agree with many of his views AND I also disagree with many of his views, specifically his spiritual views. To say that I don’t agree with his liberal views BECAUSE I have said that I don’t agree with other views (his spiritual views) would be dishonest. There are many people who are dishonest and stay along “party lines” so to speak on all issues instead of being honest about their true views about specific issues.
A perfect example is… abortion. Most pro choice people will never admit that late term abortions are wrong even though they know in their heart that those abortions are wrong. They feel that to not stay along “party lines” would make them weak or weaken their argument. They are being dishonest for the sake of winning the debate. Not for the sake of the truth. Some people just don’t understand that honesty and truth are the most important things here.. not their pride and egos.
I do believe that Mormons are members of a satanic cult. I don’t believe that they, themselves, are satanic (most of them).
And I do believe that Glenn Beck is lying if he claims that Mormonism is no different from the Baptists or Methodists etc. If he says that is the case, as Bill has said, then he is a liar in that instance. This IS the Mormon agenda… to convince people to believe that Mormonism is the same as fundamental Christianity and it is an extremely deceptive lie. It is a cult trying to recruit more members. And it is much harder for them to do so if they are honest about their true beliefs up front.
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kay~ms said
Betty said:
Actually if you read Emanuel, or about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel_J._Emanuel
you’ll see how he’s been misrepresented. He is examining the ethical philosophical issues involved in allocating very scarce resources like organs and vaccines, not endorsing any particular view or a ‘complete lives’ policy:
Well Betty, this is what I found on the link that you posted up above…
In 2009, Govind Persad, Alan Wertheimer and Ezekiel Emanuel co-wrote another article on a similar topic, “Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions” in the journal The Lancet.[23] The article advocates a health allocation system termed the “complete lives system”. The authors said,
“Allocation of very scarce medical interventions such as organs and vaccines is a persistent ethical challenge. We evaluate eight simple allocation principles that can be classified into four categories: treating people equally, favouring the worst-off, maximising total benefits, and promoting and rewarding social usefulness. No single principle is sufficient to incorporate all morally relevant considerations and therefore individual principles must be combined into multiprinciple allocation systems. We evaluate three systems: the United Network for Organ Sharing points systems, quality-adjusted life-years, and disability-adjusted life-years. We recommend an alternative system—the complete lives system—which prioritises younger people who have not yet lived a complete life, and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.”
“WE RECOMMEND AN ALTERNATIVE SYSTEM- THE COMPLETE LIVES SYSTEM…”
Cont…
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kay~ms said
Continued…
You said (quoting Emanuel):
“As far as rationing goes, it’s nothing I’ve ever advocated for the health system as a whole, and I’ve talked about rationing only in the context of situations where you have limited items, like limited livers or limited vaccine, and not for overall health care.”
This is such a ridiculous statement (and argument). Who WOULD advocate rationing?? No one wants it.
Glenn Beck:
“I want to make it very clear: What these people are talking about is how to ration in case of an emergency shortage — shortage of kidneys, hospital beds or flu vaccine.
What we all need to remember is that universal health care creates another shortage: a shortage of money. And when we are out of money, these are the people making the rules governing your health care.”
Logic dictates that if this is the guideline (”The complete lives system”) advocated by Obama’s adivisors for “limited items”, then, when we have limited funds for “overall health care” the same guidelines will be followed.
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obama the antichrist said
princess: “one more thing, it really is impossible to keep peoples beliefs out of discussing politics” i never throw in my christian views into politics. it just happens that some of my political views are also christian views. like murder is bad. murder is illegal in the bible and law.
and my name. let me reiterate i used to believe it because Obama reminded me of the antichrist mentioned in Revalations (which i happened to be reading at the time). but i dont believe that anymore. but i like debate it makes me happy. so my name sorta sparks that debate in people 😀 i posted something on here while i was next to my friend who is a hard core liberal and when she saw my user name she slapped me and called me an idiot. so it caused her to become angry and to attack. i like the verbal thrashings not the physical abuse…
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Hors Service said
Hey Kay, just noted that among your answers:
“I do believe that Mormons are members of a satanic cult. I don’t believe that they, themselves, are satanic (most of them).”
Ahaaaa? Strange, I didn’t found it in their books, the mention to praise Satan or Lucifer or Baal or etc…
Who is satanic in particular?
By the way, I think that Christianism being basically false, Satanists, who revere a character of the Bible (In fact, they’re just christians like the other ones…), are 2 times false… Even ridiculous, in fact^^
I can understand why people believe in God, but Satan?! Gee…
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kay~ms said
Hors, this link should clear up any confusion you have about Mormons…
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Mormons/mormon.htm
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Princessxxx said
http://votingforsatan.com/
and this should explain satan.
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kay~ms said
Yes.. thank you Princess!
Hors, to get a fair opinion about the Mormon “religion” you should get information from BOTH sides before making a judgement (and critisizing my opinion) right?
Go to P’s link… http://votingforsatan.com/
and click on the video links… Bill’s show where he is wearing the sacred Mormon temple undergarments. And also the video with Ed Decker, an ex Mormon. THEN I would like to hear your opinion about the claim that Mormonism is a cult that follows satan.
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Princessxxx said
kay, i was making a joke.
hors, please, in the name of god, don’t click on that link and watch the video of the crazy man in the underwear. it’s downright evil what satan has done to that man’s hair.
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Hors Service said
😮
This was my aspect during the reading, and the videos.
Gosh.
This is so… Wrong ?!
Ok, by this things, we could still understand that Mormons are a kind of Christian sect like many others.
But this arguments feeds on hatred and ignorance. Like “voting for Satan”. Associating people with Satan to prevent people from voting for them is just stupid, hainous, whatever. Like associating them with Hitler. (By the way, the only common point between Hitler and Obama is that they’re both humans.)
And for the ignorance side: The eye in the pyramid is a very common symbol for God, or by extension a Supreme Being.
It’s even on the dollar! Yes, it’s also a freemason sign. Freemasons helped build America, since the beginnings. They’re deists.
I’m kind of deceived than you buy into such propaganda. And it seems that, even according to your sites, they worship Jesus and not Lucifer.
You seem so much focalized on the Apocalyspe book… You know that’s in fact the only one that really describe Satan, hell, and stuff?
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Jugar sin comision a Euromillones, la mejor peña said
Jugar sin comision a Euromillones, la mejor peña…
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