A Different Kind of Blog

news and things sacred and irreverent put together by opinionated people.

The trouble with bedrock beliefs…

Posted by 1minionsopinion on October 24, 2009

..would be their inability to change without applying great force.

(The following is a cross-post.)

I can’t say I see that as a good thing, unlike columnist Rebecca Hagelin at the Washington Post in a recent piece.

“Of course I dislike the Nazis. But who is to say they’re morally wrong?” The shocking statement was made to a college professor in New York by one of his students, as documented by author Kerby Anderson in a much-needed book, “Christian Ethics in Plain Language.” Mr. Anderson reports that the professor “said that he has never met a student who denied the Holocaust happened. But he also reported that 10 to 20 percent of his students cannot bring themselves to say that killing millions of people is wrong.”

That’s an alarming statistic, but I wonder if some of that might have to do with the fact that God killed a lot of people in the bible. Genocide cannot be evil if God does it. Check this list for 20 horrible death fests God created and/or encouraged.

Morality is an interesting concept. Common Sense Atheism quotes a piece from Alonzo Fyfe in another post regarding the inability of both Christians and atheists to accurately explain what leads to moral beliefs. One side says “evidence” or “reasons” and the other says “divinity.” In the end it amounts to the same nonsense; it’s feelings oriented and not based on reality.

This is certainly an indictment of how modern society has made a false religion out of “tolerance” and how we adults have failed to teach that there are, indeed, moral absolutes. What evidence more strongly proves the dangerous folly of moral relativism than young people who can’t distinguish between learning to “tolerate” what they merely “dislike” and recognizing what is, on its face, evil? We’re in real trouble when even the most egregious evils can’t be named as such.

Ms. Hagelin needs to travel to a few new places and see how other cultures live. True, a lot of cultures come to the same conclusions about murder and theft that we have, but that doesn’t make “Do not kill” and “do not steal” moral absolutes. They’re common rules found in many societies because they are useful rules for keeping a society healthy and productive. Too many murders, too much loss of property, and nobody feels safe anymore. Weapons get popular and fear leads even more people to be hurt and killed. It’s a hard cycle to break once it starts.

Ms. Hagelin needs to spend more time with more kinds of people to understand what the word “tolerate” means. I think we don’t do enough mingling, frankly. When we don’t like how some people think, we’ll avoid them or make enemies out of them rather than be friends with them anyway. We seldom associate with our neighbours, especially in areas where there’s a lot of change all the time. It gets hard to know who to trust when we don’t make an effort to get to know anybody.

I don’t want to label these as “the most egregious evils” but I concede she has a point here:

Recent surveys that reveal a growing number of youth believe that lying and adultery are acceptable behaviors indicate that we are headed for serious trouble as a society. We’ve become so obsessed with what is “politically correct” and the need not to “offend” that we are failing to teach the principles that every civil society must uphold in order to survive.

I don’t know what we could do about the lying. There’s something called Radical Honesty but I think if we all did that we’d be insufferable bastards and everyone would be upset and offended all the time. I don’t think we, as a society, can handle truth and criticism with a rational mind. I think most individuals never learned how.

When confronted with anything we don’t like to hear, we’ll automatically deny it or we’ll cry about it, as if we were still four years old. This is especially true when it comes to politics and religion, because we keep those issues and beliefs tied so close to our identities that we can’t pull a piece out and objectively study it like we can a rock or microbe.

Adultery may be a product of our inability to be honest with each other and ourselves. We sleep around because we a) deny having carnal urges that need satisfying and b) don’t want to offend and upset our partners when we say they “just don’t do it” for us. We are taught there is a moral obligation to stay by the one we’re with (til death do us part) but that isn’t always the best option. None of us should be forced to remain in a relationship that is going to endanger us or abuse our mental health. Some promises don’t need to be kept.

That said, why do so many of us act on our impulses instead of stopping ourselves? Why do we refuse to really look at and accept what we have? Why do we always feel like we have to look for more, for better? Is there some evolutionary reason we’ll seek the greener grass when what we have is already adequate?

Some truths are supposed to be self-evident. Yet even our Founding Fathers saw the need to clearly state them as such. Jeff Myers, a recognized expert in leadership development who has trained some two million people in mentoring and worldview understanding, warns, “We live in what may be one of the first generations in Western Civilization that is not intentionally preparing to pass its values to the next generation.”

How did Myers come to that conclusion? I don’t want to claim he’s wrong. Common sense isn’t something we’re born with, we have to learn it. We have to learn how important it is to share, to be polite, to be honest. We have to be encouraged to behave in a trustworthy fashion. We need our parents and role models to demonstrate how important it is to keep our word so we don’t disappoint those who count on us.

We also need to learn how to think critically and this is where a majority of us seem to be failing. It isn’t enough to pass values onto the next generation. The reasons for holding those values has to be better than “Because God says so.” It has to be. Why? Because values change over time and what worked then or even two hundred years ago might not fit the world today.

Beliefs about the nature of marriage and homosexuality and health and a lot of other topics within the Bible are no longer accurate in today’s world. Portions of the book advocate the use of slavery and stonings, too, and I hope we all agree that it’s a good thing we don’t support that anymore. But why are only some parts of the bible allowed to be dismissed as out of fashion (or just plain “wrong”) when other ludicrous things get kept?

Ms. Hagelin thinks it’s vital to save people from the “evils” of moral relativism, but I think she’s wrong to assume it’s invalid. Of course it’s a real morality system. That’s why there are so many cultural identities. So many Dash-Americans. An identity doesn’t change just because the country of residence does, but a country can change if enough identities find common ground. Those Founding Fathers Ms. Hagelin is so fond of might be appalled if they could see what their beloved United States have become.

One resource to help you train the next generation are the materials from Mr. Myers’ organization, Passing the Baton. At www.passingthebaton.org, you can order a kit that will enable you to mentor and equip young people with the ability to develop a strong moral compass.

I’ve included the link to that and her “Faith First” stuff can be found at howtosaveyourfamily.com. I wonder what advice is in her book for this quirky tidbit:

How to fight back against manipulative marketing campaigns that target your child, including what to say to your teen when you pass Victoria’s Secret in the mall

I doubt the answer will be, “Girls like lace, Son, and if you want to wear that, you can, too.”

Hagelin also offers a link to Probe Ministries International, which sounds like someone didn’t think too hard about what that would sound like.

You can probe that at your leisure and I might find blog fodder in there at some point as well.


81 Responses to “The trouble with bedrock beliefs…”

  1. dorian said

    good read, M! that litany of death fests by the god of the old testament is always great for scaring little children into growing up into scared adults. no surprise why those who take the bible literally and to heart are paranoid. the God that they worship is most unloving and cruel.

    i ventured into the Probe Ministries International link and i stopped reading after this:

    Doctrinal Statement

    The final authority of our beliefs is the Bible, God’s infallible written Word, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments. We believe that the Bible was uniquely, verbally, and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that it was without error in the original manuscripts. It is the supreme and final authority in all matters on which it speaks (2 Tim 3:16,17; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 Cor 2:13, 10:11; John 10:35).

    so there it is, the fundamentalists’ creed. like a step into antediluvian times.


  2. 1minionsopinion said

    I love the “without error in the original manuscripts” bit. Can the writer of that read ancient Greek and Hebrew and make sure? Does he know who wrote those down? Does he know when?


  3. kayms said

    Lots of twisting to support non belief… to sum up… “how dare our Creator expect us to behave according to His will… how DARE He!”. “How dare He excercise His sovereign RIGHT”. “Who does He think He is??”.

    I love how the ones who don’t like being judged by their Creator, instead try to judge Him. How ironic.


  4. dorian said

    it’s GOD’s WORD, M. one can speak in absolutes when you are a believer, it seems. unquestionable faith. they say there’s a fiery place reserved for those who question.


  5. dorian said

    God’s okay by me. people who assume what God’s will is, according to the “inerrant” bible written by not so perfect humans, have no right to judge other humans. shouldn’t they defer judgment to God?


  6. Those Founding Fathers Ms. Hagelin is so fond of were wise enough to separate church and state. And many if not most of them were NOT Bible-believing Christians. Many if not most of them were Deists that don’t accept the miracles of the Bible or the divinity of Christ. The way the right wing fundies are trying to rewrite history to make it look like the Founding Fathers of this country were mainly Christian is very Orwellian.

    It is a sin to think if you’re a Christian. It is a sin to EXIST if you’re a Christian. Wow.


  7. Hey Dorian, 1minion, E.E., Betty, ANYONE…come visit the other thread. Tell me whether or not my description of the structure of the universe makes any sense to you based on what you’ve read or heard of science. I KNOW I’m not making this stuff up, but Kay doesn’t.


  8. kayms said

    I didn’t say you were making it up… but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t made up… it’s all SPECULATION, you’re acting like it is fact, that usual misconception of your’s… theory and fact are not the same thing…. just like belief and truth are not the same thing.


  9. Everything we can observe and measure, everything we have ever been able to observe and measure, is consistent with that explanation. It is LOGICAL that the universe is structured that way because it acts like it is. If it walks like a duck, etc.

    You are anti-science, anti-knowledge, just want everyone to swallow YOUR interpretation the way you did. Who fed that to you?


  10. dorian said

    bill keller @ http://www.liveprayer.com feeds kay. he’s her guru.


  11. 1minionsopinion said

    I’m amazed at the pair of you, so dedicated to the commenting. I assume TBG means my last entry so I’ll go see if I can get a word in edgewise…


  12. According to the standards of Kay the Black Knight:

    That the earth is spherical and not flat is speculation

    That the earth goes around the sun is speculation

    That everything in the universe is interconnected is speculation

    That humans evolved from non-humans is speculation

    Kay the Black Knight doesn’t care or doesn’t believe that there is physical evidence supporting all these statements. Apparently it is all “made up.”


  13. Now Kay may say that she agrees about the first two statements being fact but still thinks the last two statements are speculation. What I’m trying to say is if her standards are consistently applied, she should also dismiss the first two as speculation.


  14. 1minionsopinion said

    I think if everyone deferred judgment to god we’d be in even worse shape than we are now. Everyone could do whatever and let god sort it all out in the end rather than trying to be ethical or rational and kind and good and decent and all that. I just threw a post at my other site about a dude in Naples who killed his whole family for some reason and still thinks he deserves heaven.


    Accepting Christ is an automatic In for the Heaven Club, and if you really feel like you’ve repented for whatever it is you’ve done, then it’s also a free pass. God forgives all, even what should be unforgivable? Thou shalt not kill, but come in anyway? Is it a commandment or merely a suggestion?


  15. kay~ms said

    TBG.. you do realize that “consistently applied standards” infers ignorance don’t you? A lack of open mindedness. Which you recently accused me of. Now who’s being inconsistent? It is ok to agree with some things and not with others. It is okay to be a conservative but agree with some liberal theology (which I do.. oh! shocking huh). It’s total ignorance to expect “consistent standards” on debatable issues. Just like I don’t agree with Glenn Beck’s religious choices but I do agree with most of his political views… (psst.. it’s ok.. there’s nothing wrong with that.)

    Anothe popular example… “well, if you are so pro life, how come you are for the death penalty..huh???”

    And yet another popular misconception that non believers like to propagate. All you have to do is say the magic words and you are IN! Like God isn’t capable of judging what is in someone’s heart. He can creat an entire universe but is very limited in this respect apparently. It would be just absolutely crazy for Him to be able to read our minds. And besides, who is He to go against the “rules”? He’s not allowed to do that.
    No where in the Bible does it say that all you have to do is recite “I believe” and you are saved.


  16. What I am curious about Kay is why you’re willing to accept the evidence that the earth goes around the sun, but are NOT willing to accept the evidence that humans and apes have a common ancestor. There’s just as much proof of that as there is for anything else known to man, more proof than for some other things people accept as fact. It must be a fundie thing.


  17. And I agree with Kay (surprise!) that if one’s heart isn’t in the right place, one can’t fool God. If there is sincere repentence, God knows it.

    I think the reasoning could be that if one truly does accept Christ, one won’t do the type of things that would keep one out of Heaven. If one doesn’t truly accept Christ but just tries to fool oneself into thinking that in order to get away with bad stuff, God sees through such a cheap trick.


  18. This reminds me of a scene from the 1983 Monty Python film The Meaning of Life. A Catholic man has been laid off and can no longer afford to feed his large family. He is discussing options with his family in the following exchange:

    1)God ‘as blessed me so much I can’t afford to feed you anymore. 2)Couldn’t you have your balls cut off?
    1)It’s not as simple as that Nigel,God would see through such a cheap trick. What we do to ourselves, we do to Him.

    It’s a great film by the way, but for religous people I recommend their earlier film The Life of Brian. I have already discussed Monty Python and the Holy Grail in the context of Kay (the Black Knight} continuing to deny that macroevolution happens even after being shown evidence for it.


  19. princessxxx said

    1minionsopinion, i just read that:
    http://1minionsopinion.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/as-far-as-i-know-if-you-kill-your-whole-family/ creepy

    and god’s 20 horrible deathfest, well, i’ve read that before.
    in the bible.
    that’s creepy, too.


  20. dorian said

    you know, that’s been the most dubious thing so far – the “if accept Jesus as your savior, you are saved”. somebody like ted bundy can very well say that to the priest on his way to execution and that gives him an automatic pass to heaven? it’s divine edict, according to the fundies. it’s like sin to the max, sam, at the end you can have it wiped out clean, like a chapter 7 bankruptcy. where does the responsibility for your actions begin and end in this case?


  21. kayms said

    Dorian, you must have missed comment #15… You are misunderstanding Christian theology here.. don’t feel bad, it’s a common misconception among non believers.

    “And yet another popular misconception that non believers like to propagate. All you have to do is say the magic words and you are IN! Like God isn’t capable of judging what is in someone’s heart. He can creat an entire universe but is very limited in this respect apparently. It would be just absolutely crazy for Him to be able to read our minds. And besides, who is He to go against the “rules”? He’s not allowed to do that.
    No where in the Bible does it say that all you have to do is recite “I believe” and you are saved.”


  22. Princessxxx said

    kay, non-believers aren’t the ones propagating that.

    i hear that all day long on christian tv.

    even your daddy bill keller said that hitler could be in heaven right now. all he had to do was ask jesus to come into his heart.
    didn’t matter how many people he killed.



  23. dorian said

    kay – re. #15, that’s why i think there’s got to be something lacking by way of the fundies’explanation of christian theology. when your pastors come out with messaging like the in the #22 link, what kind of inference does that promote? why don’t you educate us. you might do a better job than keller.


  24. kay~ms said

    Bill says at the end of every show… when he says the prayer to accept Jesus… he says that these are not magic words that get you saved…. watch a show.

    Yes, if even Hitler was truly sorry for what he had done and accepted what Jesus had done for him, he would be saved. I,like most, don’t think Hitler was capable of doing that… as with most evil people but God’s plan is to give everyone hope and forgiveness if they truly want it and believe and accept His grace.

    That’s the God that Christians worship.


  25. kay~ms said

    And Christian tv, for the most part, promotes prosperity preaching, it’s “warped” Christianity taught by greedy insincere people…. just because it’s said on Christian tv that doesn’t make it true unfortunately.


  26. 1minionsopinion said

    But enough killers think they can kill without remorse until one day they feel sincere enough to give a “By the way, sorry,” to the man upstairs.. sure, god supposedly weighs the heart and might find it wanting, but it’s still sending the message that you can do whatever and still get all the sins washed away. Terrible advertising, if you ask me.


  27. 1minionsopinion said

    If “fear of god” is the only reason people have for doing good, that’s not a good enough reason.


  28. Princessxxx said

    kay said, “Bill says at the end of every show… when he says the prayer to accept Jesus… he says that these are not magic words that get you saved…. watch a show.”

    laugh out loud kay, laugh out loud.
    bill keller no longer has a show to watch.
    remember, she lost it back in …oh when was it? august.

    and today, bill keller, well, she’s saying this,
    “***OCTOBER FINANCIAL UPDATE: As we head into the last 6 days of the month, we still need to bring in right at $25,000 to cover the balance of our September financial needs, and $80,000 to cover the monthly shortfalls we’ve incurred since January.”

    but dorian, kay is right,
    that’s what bill says at the end of every show,
    right after he is through trashing muslims or mormons or oprah or obama.
    but after he says it, he never goes on to pontificate on what else happens or what one must do,
    other than you should email him and he will get your mailing address and send you a booklet free of charge…..he’ll even pay the postage.

    and then he boast about how many millions of dollars his mailing list is worth..and lists it on his 501-c3 tax-free exempt form as an asset.
    laugh out loud.

    no dorian, don’t bother to watch a show.
    you are sick enough already.

    Hey 1minionsopinion, i like to post “stupid christian of the day” posts.
    like the ones that kill their families, or stuff little girls into suitcases.
    or run for miss usa with fake breasts.

    if you know of any stupid christians, feel free to make it a “stupid christian of the day” kind of day.


  29. princessxxx said

    1minionsopinion, here is a post about the author of the book “crazy for god”, frank schaeffer. an interesting clip, very funny.



  30. princessxxx said

    and while i’m blathering, you have the cutest gravatar,

    and i notice that the christians, kay and obama the antichrist, do not have gravatars.
    is that some sort of religious belief? false idols or something?

    why so sneaky kay? you got something to hide? you, too, ota.
    let’s get some pretty pictures up in here.


  31. dorian said

    yeah minion has the cutest gravatar. i feel like eating it everytime. i’ve been wanting to change mine into the cat in the hat or curious george or an anime image but wordpress is not letting me for some reason. not patient so i’m stuck with the fifer. i’m tired of him.


  32. dorian said

    so, if there was hell, would gandhi be there automatically because he didn’t accept JC as his saviour, per fundie christian theologic?


  33. obama the antichrist said

    i dont understand why athiests keep bringing up the old testament. in the old they had to sacrifice to be forgiven. we have jesus everything changed because jesus died. thats why we can mix fabrics now! ha!

    dorian that is one thing that gets me. gandhi might be in heaven based on how he lived. however it says in the bible that the only way to heaven is through jesus…so idk. i like to think God has a great sense of humor and a brilliant mind and a caring heart so hopefully i get to talk with gandhi in heaven.

    also fear of God isnt necessarily a legit fear like a phobia its more like a respectful i acknowledge you as true king kind of fear.


  34. dorian said

    as an adult you know (or should know) that love and respect God is what it’s all about, but to a child going to catholic school with some mean nuns or very strict religious parents, it’s fear that you’ll be punished with hell. good thing i didn’t scare easy.

    gotta make some popcorn. more horror movies on tv!


  35. obama the antichrist said

    thats very true. Im not catholic and never attended a christian school. but in sunday school everything God did was great (it always is). but when i got into high school and read more of the bible i found how truly powerful God is. its amazing! ever want something good to read crack open the bible. read Revalations those are great!


  36. kay~ms said

    1minion said: “But enough killers think they can kill without remorse until one day they feel sincere enough to give a “By the way, sorry,” to the man upstairs.. sure, god supposedly weighs the heart and might find it wanting, but it’s still sending the message that you can do whatever and still get all the sins washed away. Terrible advertising, if you ask me.”

    So, a person looks for a short cut.. a way to get away with doing harm to others and you only see the problem with the One offering forgiveness and salvation? That’s definitely a liberal theology… not holding a person responsible for their actions. That “terrible advertising” is only going to look good to people who are not sincere.

    Your seeing it from a very biased perspective… if things were turned around you’d (non believers) would no doubt be saying… God can’t forgive someone if they are truly sorry?… There’s no pleasing you guys…


  37. kay~ms said

    Dorian said: “so, if there was hell, would gandhi be there automatically because he didn’t accept JC as his saviour, per fundie christian theologic?”

    Do you think he should be in Heaven side by side with Jesus when he rejected what Christ did for him? Christian theology makes sense… did any of you read the stuff that TBG posted about Hinduism?? Hinduism doesn’t even compare theology wise…


  38. kay~ms said

    “right after he is through trashing muslims or mormons or oprah or obama.”

    These people trash God.


  39. On the contrary, Kay. Hinduism makes a lot of sense. It accurately describes the physical nature of the universe, and accurately describes states of consciousness, and accurately describes how to attain such states yourself instead of just reading or hearing about some other guy who did it a couple thousand years ago.

    As I said, I am not qualified to do Hinduism justice in describing it, and I am sorry about that. I mentioned the six worlds, but didn’t get into the yugas and cycles of time that present a plausible reason for why the universe is in the first place. It is a drama with the parts of good and evil laid out in such proportions that “the game is worth the candle.” If good or evil were overwhelmingly one-sided, or if they were evenly matched, it would be a boring game.

    Hindu theology is rich and deep, and full of ancient wisdom.


  40. Hinduism though has many cultural parts to it unique to living in India. Buddhism is a reform of Hinduism. When a Buddhist went to China and found the Chinese Taoism, it was recognized that the Chinese had discovered many of the same spiritual truths. The combination of Buddhism and Taoism became what was to be known later as Zen Buddhism (after it went to Japan).

    Now I am not fond of modern Japanese Zen Buddhism, where they do a lot of sitting (zazen), but the early Chinese form from about 700 A.D. to 1000 A.D. makes a lot of sense to me. Still, even the modern Japanese Buddhism makes sense compared to fundy Christianity. I especially like the koans as teaching tools.


  41. The Chinese had developed Taoism independently of the Indian Hinduism and Buddhism, but it teaches the same lessons about the nature of reality and consciousness. Again, I am most fond of the early Taoism more than later historical developments, where to some degree Taoism became riddled with superstition. It is characteristic of all spiritual teachings from any culture that over time they become contaminated with cultural artifacts, concretized, and the core message becomes diluted and polluted. The message is still there though, even in the Christian Bible.


  42. If Jesus had been born in India, He would not have been crucified. When he said “I and the Father are one,” his friends would have told him “Congratulations. You finally figured it out.”


  43. 1minionsopinion said

    #33 “i dont understand why athiests keep bringing up the old testament. in the old they had to sacrifice to be forgiven. we have jesus everything changed because jesus died. thats why we can mix fabrics now! ha!”

    Didn’t Paul come up with the idea that Christ saved us all when he sacrificed himself? It’s nothing Christ is reported to have said, is it?

    Ever notice how little there actually is in the book about Christ? The whole Christmas mythology people believe today is how none of the gospels literally describe it. What was he like as a toddler? Nothing says. What was he like at puberty? Nothing says. What was he like before he met everybody? Not much is said. Did he have any girlfriends? Nothing is said. It’s a pisspoor biography of a saviour. He was born and 33 years later he said some stuff and then died. Praise Jesus.

    Christianity was not Christ’s religion. He grew up in the days of the Old Testament. I’d say I’m glad he rebelled on the old teachings because they were far too cruel (as atheists like to point out) and god was nothing to love back then. Jesus, in all his wisdom, apparently forgave his dad for having a sadistic streak as much as he forgives all of us for ours. I don’t actually think he was born of a virgin and is god’s direct descendant. Too many other myths in other religions have similar miracle stories. Zeus and Leda come to mind as a far better story.

    I think I like to bring up the old testament to remind people that religion changes as people change. God used to embody both good and evil. That idea changed to God only good and the Devil getting the black sheep costume change. Then every version of Christianity you can think of in the time since – some flourishing, some crushed for being far too heretical, and what got kept didn’t get kept so much because it was accurate, right and true, but because it was right for the times.

    Isn’t that why people keep reinterpreting the word today, to keep it looking new and relevant? Religions have to change when people do otherwise religious people will never get a chance to move forward.


  44. 1minionsopinion said

    For Kay at 36: You quote my comment about killers thinking they can go to heaven. Then

    “So, a person looks for a short cut.. a way to get away with doing harm to others and you only see the problem with the One offering forgiveness and salvation? That’s definitely a liberal theology… not holding a person responsible for their actions. That “terrible advertising” is only going to look good to people who are not sincere.”

    I definitely want to hold people responsible for their actions. I think it’s terrible how people blame everything but their own inability to control themselves. When it comes time to act, there is always a choice on what to do. Not everyone who gets fired starts stealing. Not everyone with a shitty single parent home life joins a gang. Not everyone ends a life to solve a problem.

    I’m all behind the idea that a god can offer salvation and forgiveness. Why not? People want to feel safe and forgiven. Their neighbourhoods can’t offer it and their friends and family might never get over what they’ve done, no matter how massive or trivial an act it was.

    But do priests and pastors make it very clear to their congregations that forgiveness from god requires genuine remorse and sincerity when asking for that forgiveness? That Christians don’t get an automatic In because they believe the right stuff? They also have to do the right stuff, and feel the right way about things they’ve done, right or wrong. Yes?


  45. 1minionsopinion said

    Oh, me again. I knew if I poked around I’d find a useful link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

    “The doctrine of sola fide or “by faith alone” asserts God’s pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith or belief alone, to the exclusion of all human efforts or works. All humanity, it is asserted, is fallen and sinful, under the curse of God, and incapable of saving itself from God’s wrath and curse. But God, on the basis of the life, death, and resurrection of his Son, Jesus Christ alone (solus Christus), grants sinners judicial pardon, or justification, which is received solely through faith.”


  46. obama the antichrist said

    1 wasnt paul a man of God wasnt God with him wherever he went. didnt he speak for God. so why are you suprised that a disciple of God reported this. also didnt jesus say he is the messiah the son of God the King of kings and Lord of Lords. wasnt Jesus the perfect human. never sinned. didnt the temple curtain rip top to bottom signifing that anyone can talk to God not only the high priest. and you do some of what jesus did as a child. do you need to know that he had girlfriend do you need to know that he tripped and fell when he was 5. no thats not important. we want his teachings and if jesus never mentioned his childhood then it is not relevant to who he is. and God never was evil. he was the protector of his people. if you look at Job the devil was all the evil. and christianity did change based on Jesus. we dont have to sacrifice anymore because of him.


  47. dorian said

    i’m reminded of “imprecatory prayer .pastor drake said he’s praying for obama to die because he “does not come to jesus”. according to pastor drake, he is only “repeating what God is saying.” ??? now where did he get that twisted notion from? Rom. 12:19 “Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.” – there’s that wrathful God again. was that a direct quote? who wrote it? imprecatory prayer = another human interpretation of scripture, of knowing the “will of God”. notice the jihadist mentality common among religious extremists everywhere?
    here’s pastor drake:


  48. obama the antichrist said

    that verse is talking bout the end of days another twist on this verse


  49. 1minionsopinion said

    The fact that Obama the Antichrist thinks Revelations is fantastic alarms me a little. The fact that Obama the Antichrist has ever done an evil thing makes me wonder how different Obama the Antichrist’s definition of evil must be to mine.


  50. kay~ms said

    Dorian said: “vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.” – there’s that wrathful God again. ”

    I hate to keep using the same old example but, you find a problem with God repaying Hitler for the wrongs he committed? You only see Him as being “wrathful”? I don’t think Hitler’s victims see it that way.

    Non believers love to pick and choose and twist things and think that supports their biased view…

    Do you think the pastor praying for Obama to die represents all Christians? Or Christianity? He’s a fringe extremist. He’s irrelevant. He represents what is present in ALL religions. I don’t understand the point you are trying to make.


  51. kay~ms said

    1minion says: “But do priests and pastors make it very clear to their congregations that forgiveness from god requires genuine remorse and sincerity when asking for that forgiveness? That Christians don’t get an automatic In because they believe the right stuff? They also have to do the right stuff, and feel the right way about things they’ve done, right or wrong. Yes?”

    Yes, they do.. Bill Keller, as one example, makes it clear that the words they recite are not “magic”. It requires a change of heart also.

    Any pastors or priests who do not make it clear are not doing their jobs properly. Which I believe there are very few that fit this description. The problem is with the listeners who interpret their words to fit what they want to hear. And therefore the blame should be on them, not the pastors or priests.


  52. dorian said

    just understand that there are those extremists that fear God for those “wrathful” reasons and use that to justify their hate and judgment of those that do not share in the worship of this unforgiving God. you’re using hitler’s victims to twist my point? don’t go there. my great-great grandfather’s kin (and mine) suffered his atrocities.

    it’s very sad and unfortunate that “christians” like pastor drake and keller do not represent more of an example of Jesus’ teachings of tolerance and forgiveness instead taking on the negative path of imprecatory prayer and such.


  53. obama the antichrist said

    how does reading how the end of times to come and trying to figure out what it means make it a bad thing. have you read revalations studied it thought what it actually meant have you ever 1 connected the points in the bible like the seven churches mentioned in revalations to the seven redemptive gifts? dont judge me based on my pursuit of knowledge. i also love to read books that deal with diseases and what those diseases do. it helps with my career choice. i love to read about mental illnesses and those ppls lives. i love to read murder mysteries. does that make me evil. i would say not. just because i like to read revalations doesnt mean i am an evil christian praying for the death of non believers. no not like that at all. sorry to disappoint your view of me.


  54. obama the antichrist said

    1, im pretty sure our definition of evil is the same. if you are clouded by your hatred for christians then i am truly sorry about that i hope i can help remove that cloud


  55. 1minionsopinion says “Christianity was not Christ’s religion.”

    Christianity is not the religion OF Jesus, which was the realization of divine Sonship. It is the religion ABOUT Jesus, that puts him on a pedestal and worships the messenger instead of following his message. That’s my opinion, and I am neither the first nor the only one to recognize this.

    Even with all the distortion because of the distance in space, time and culture from His teachings though, there is still truth in the story of Jesus enough to change lives. And for those who need a bhakti yoga to reach moksha, Christianity is one such path.


  56. 1minionsopinion said

    Don’t think hatred drives me. Hardly that. I seek to understand how some people believe certain things, is all. As far as Revelations is concerned, wasn’t John writing that as if he’d experience it in his lifetime? That he did not shows the failure of prophesy. That it hasn’t happened at all shows failure of prophesy. Split hairs if you like about how we’re on our way there, but no one has yet announced an end date and been anywhere close to right.


  57. obama the antichrist said

    does there need to be a date set? i havent read of a prophecy that had a date


  58. princessxxx said

    obama the antichrist,
    here you can find out the day if not the exact year for god’s return.
    for a low low price of $29.95 at the Wold Net Daily’s christian bookstore.

    anyone that is a real christian knows that selling a DVD like that is real evil. it’s called theft. they are stealing from the ignorant.


  59. princessxxx said

    and kay, bill keller does not teach christianity,
    he judges and mocks celebrities and politicians and people that make more money than him for 59 minutes,
    and then for one minute says, “say this prayer with me and you “will” be saved. nothing magic about the words.”

    well, that is back when she had a show. lol

    bill keller also says that even though he was cheating on his wife and doing drugs and ripping off financial investors and laundering the loot in the cayman island,
    had he have died during that time period,
    he would have gone to heaven,
    because he was saved as a little boy. lol.


  60. obama the antichrist said

    those are speculations when they think. but they arent God so its like referencing wiki.


  61. dorian said

    PG, princess, PG!


  62. obama the antichrist said

    i think princess is having his period ;D


  63. dorian said

    maybe you’re right, OTA! i’ll make a note of that on my calendar.


  64. princessxxx said

    well dorian, i hope you have a “mayan calender” for all the blood i’m spewing. hahahahahahah.


  65. obama the antichrist said

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH good one princess


  66. As “The Bicycling Guitarist,” I have been called a traveling minstrel. I guess that makes my Schwinn a “Minstrel Cycle” (but maybe only if I play ragtime!)


  67. dorian said

    hahahahaahhahaa princess of the apocalypto!


  68. dorian said

    TBG, you are a minstrel, a troubador! i can’t play guitar and bike at the same time. i’ll play my fiddle and ride a donkey and travel with you, we can play music and princess can dance. anybody else?


  69. I’ll ride shotgun


  70. obama the antichrist said

    ill sit there next to betty and look awesome…not hard 😉


  71. About a year ago a couple people wrote me asking if I wanted to be the “town troubadour.” Perhaps I’m troubadourable. Town troubabour sounds too close to village idiot though…


  72. dorian said

    betty is bard, he will do a lyric or two. OTA you can’t just sit there and look pretty, you’ll have to turn a few cartwheels at least! or eat fire, swallow a sword or two hehehe. what a caravan.


  73. I am a bit late here, but mieux vaut tard que jamais.

    Bedrock beliefs? As in thinking that the Flintstones (home town: Bedrock) are a reality show? Apparently there are some Americans so ignorant of reality as to think that humans walked with dinosaurs. I heard Sarah Palin was of that ilk, which is the main reason I voted against her.

    Of course humans DO walk with dinosaur descendants. There seems to be good evidence that today’s birds are direct descendants of the same branch of dinosaurs as T-rex.

    The Creation Museum of Ken Ham (who runs the Answers in Genesis web site) has a dinosaur with a SADDLE on it! Wow.


  74. 1minionsopinion said

    No, it probably has more to do with that story, build a house on sand and it’ll wash away. But it you build it on rock..

    P.Z. Meyers has a picture of himself on that thing. I would have loved to go on that museum road trip. I think they had a blast, but came out of there feeling pretty sorry for the kids whose parents push Intelligent Design as provable truth. I think it’s funny in a sad kind of way how they have to rewrite what we know about dinosaurs just to make them fit the limited world design available in the creationist belief system. It’s also sad to see stories of such nonsense making headway into schools as part of that “teach the controversy” junk. It’s not remotely scientific and doesn’t belong anywhere near a science class.


  75. Oh I knew that 1minions!

    The imagery of clinging to rocks is rampant in Christianity and is the opposite of the core message, where the emphasis is on learning how to let go.

    It is sound practice to build on bedrock. That is one piece of science the Bible got right. In reference to the origin of living species, the Bible says the “earth brings forth,” which sounds like evolution. This reminds me of Alan Watts describing how just as an apple tree “apples” (using apple as a verb), this solar system “peoples.” We don’t come into this world as is commonly said. We come out of it, just as an apple comes out of an apple tree.


  76. Uh, could the regulars fill me in here on what seems to be a running inside gag? Gender references seem to shift, calling Bill Keller’s show “her” show, saying princess is on “his” period, etc. I have no idea what gender or age of people I’m dealing with. For all I know, you’re all dogs that can type! (I saw a neat comic once that showed a dog sitting at a computer with the caption “On the internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”)


  77. dorian said

    i’m a genderless monkey with a pretty face, TBG.
    no idea what anyone else is, really.
    princess painted my portrait once: https://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/is-dorian9-a-real-person/


  78. princessxxx said

    that is mostly just me TBG.
    i switch gender pronouns on everyone.
    i’ve done it all my life.
    some people just seem to pick up on it and go along.

    physically i am a 50yr old gay man.

    but i’m really a 12 year old mean girl.


  79. princessxxx said

    when is kay going to get back to me with her inside information that obama is going to pass legislation to take away her rights to call dorian a he/she?

    i’m still waiting.


  80. Maybe Kay is busily researching the truth about macroevolution, fundamentalism, and Fox News. Well, one can hope!


  81. the art of war…

    …He wrote that . . ….


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