FOX NEWS – Tiger Woods must become a christian to be forgiven
Posted by princessxxx on January 6, 2010
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Beverly Raunchpuppy said
Christianity, the religion of choice for rich men that get caught cheating on their wives.
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1minionsopinion said
No god needs to forgive him. No sponsors need to forgive him. His wife is the only person he needs to look at if he’s looking for forgiveness. And whether or not she gives it to him, he has to really think about how his actions affect the people around him.
Not enough celebs think about that part. Too many celebs get away with bad behaviour and don’t seem to lose a dime. Why did Tiger?
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Princessxxx said
because he’s a chinese?
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1minionsopinion said
I just mean Lindsay Lohan (for example) loses her brain on drugs or what have you, does 20 minutes worth of rebab before her next movie role. Why do they still get hired after it’s obvious they have substance abuse issues that aren’t getting properly dealt with?
Tiger slept with several women. Why did he lose golf sponsors over that? He didn’t get caught sipping Coke when he was supposed to promote Pepsi or something.
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dorian said
tiger is an adulterer and did not respect the sanctity of marriage. so, he has to become christian so his soul is forgiven. there are known christians that have committed adultery. saved by default!!
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1minionsopinion said
From CNSNews.com (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/59396)
———-
“Tiger Woods will recover as a golfer.” Hume began. “Whether he can recover as a person I think is a very open question, and it’s a tragic situation for him.
“I think he’s lost his family; it’s not clear to me if he’ll be able to have a relationship with his children, but the Tiger Woods that emerges once the news value dies out of this scandal — the extent to which he can recover — seems to me to depend on his faith.” Hume said.
The former newsman-turned-commentator continued: “He’s said to be a Buddhist; I don’t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith.
———
From a Newsbusters.org blog quoting a transcript of an MSNBC interview between Keith Olbermann and Reverend Welton Gaddy about Hume and his big mouth (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2010/01/06/olbermann-hume-tried-force-threaten-tiger-woods-christian-conversion):
—–
I would defend the right of Mr. Hume to confess his faith however he wants to. But all of us know that with rights and freedom come responsibility. And he`s talking on a national news program. He`s giving his opinion, as he has the right to do. But anybody who is pro-American, who loves liberty in this nation, wants to support the unity of religions and not contribute to their divisiveness. And his statement, though he backed up on it a little bit last night, his statement was still a judgment about another religion, a judgment he really doesn`t have the authority to make.
OLBERMANN: And the irony on that judgment, is it not correct on theories of religion, he`s got his facts wrong. I mean, he said Buddhism does not really have a vehicle for forgiveness? If you`re going to go out on this limb, if you really feel you want to do that and take whatever the blowback is, I`m in agreement with you, good for you and good for your faith and what you believe in. But if you`re going to speak about somebody else`s religion, are you not obligated to know enough about their religion not to make a big mistake?
GADDY: Absolutely, Keith. And I wish everybody abided by that principle. The fact is that Judaism has a strong doctrine of forgiveness. Other religions practice forgiveness as well. What`s interesting in this instance is that I personally was offended by the way in which Mr. Hume talked about forgiveness and repentance within Christianity. He described a situation in which it was almost like, here`s a marketplace of religions from which Tiger Woods can draw, and the best one to go to, where forgiveness seems to be cheapest (OLBERMANN LAUGHS) and redemption cheapest, is Christianity. That is a striking sign that he doesn`t understand the pain that goes with forgiveness and that always accompanies redemption within Christianity.
——
I thought that was the main issue anyway – not that Hume went on television and told Woods to become Christian, but said so in such a way as to insult every other legitimate faith that also promises forgiveness and recovery. Trying to claim that Christianity is the only real option when it’s not.
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kay ms said
Brit Hume was prosyletizing… so what. Of course liberals want to make a big deal out of it. Brit took the opportunity to pass along to Tiger the best way he believes that Tiger can mend his life. Which, of course I agree with. Olbermann showing typical liberal tactics, twists Brit’s words…”I mean, he said Buddhism does not really have a vehicle for forgiveness?”
That’s not what Brit said.. he said “I don’t think” Buddhism offers the same kind of forgiveness. And that’s not a claim that he is an expert on Buddhism. It’s an opinion that he is entitled to. And he presents it in an opinion format.
So far, from what I’ve seen of Olbermann is that he’s just a good nitpicker and word twister.. he never has any good arguments.
“No god needs to forgive him. No sponsors need to forgive him. His wife is the only person he needs to look at if he’s looking for forgiveness.”
Wrong. What he did was against God’s will and which resulted in hurting another person terribly. He did wrong God by going against His will and hurting others is a wrong against God because He loves us and we are His.
As for his sponsers, yes he wronged them also. They invensted a lot of money in his image. Tiger was paid a lot of money for that image and had a responsibility to uphold it.
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dorian said
hume was indeed marketing the christian faith. free p.r!! to be simplistic, the buddhist religion makes you more accountable for your actions. the karma thing. with christians, it’s more of “turn the other cheek”- the forgiveness thing, is more prevalent, and yes, in a way, cheaper redemption. funny.
“my religion is better than yours”, at its best.
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kay-ms said
““my religion is better than yours”, at its best.”
That’s so silly Dorian.. It really is “I am following the true faith and you are not”. Which, I know, is a big liberal no-no. But it is what it is. Back to that “only one truth” truth that liberals deny.
Which reminded me that I wanted to comment on this also.. “But anybody who is pro-American, who loves liberty in this nation, wants to support the unity of religions and not contribute to their divisiveness.”
Wrong. That’s the very socialistic ideology that conservatives are fighting against. Uniting all the religions until they become one world religion… that won’t be worshipping the God of the Bible. It’s a bunch of crap. Religions don’t have to “unite” and diversity doesn’t have to be stiffled in order for there to be world peace. That is not where the problem is. The problem is not allowing another to believe what they want to believe. Trying to control what others believe.. such as what the liberal agenda is all about. There is so much irony in liberalism.
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Princessxxx said
kay, you have it so reverse. it’s the conservatives that want to control our hearts and minds.
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kay-ms said
Sure there are conservatives that try the control route which is wrong. But this is in the context of goverment.. conservatives are for less control thru government. The liberals are fighting for more control thru government that includes religious control.
Abortion might be thought of as an exception but it is not a religious argument of conservatives for abolishing abortion, it is a human rights argument.
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Princessxxx said
gay marriage? human rights issue?
could you explain how liberals thru govt plan religious control?
as i see it, conservatives want everyone to be christian.
or if not christian, at least follow biblical rules that they themselves can’t follow.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
There may be only one truth Kay, but there is more than one way of expressing that truth. It could be that many maybe even most faiths are all true, but each expresses the truth in the terms of the culture by and for they were written.
Writing the truth down causes more problems of interpretation, including problems of translation in some cases.
Alan Watts pointed out that it is useless to try to decide who is a more profound spiritual teacher, Buddha or Jesus for example, because in any such argument one ends up with a situation where the judge and the advocate are the same person, and you wouldn’t want that in a court of law now, would you?
In other words, if one decides that Jesus is the most advanced spiritual teacher of all time, by what standards is one making that decision? Obviously because one was raised in a culture where Christian teachings and values are dominant. There is no impartial judge of which religion is the truth.
Oh I know, you’ll say “But it says right here…” and point to a verse in the Bible. But Hindus and Moslems have their own holy books that they claim are just as divinely inspired as the Bible. Isn’t God big enough to reach different people different ways according to their level of understanding? I think so. I don’t put limitations on God.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay is partly right though Princess about liberals versus conservatives in terms of government controlling our lives. The party line is that conservatives want less goverment interference, less Big Brother, and that liberals are all about tax and spend and have government take care of everyone, Big Daddy. This isn’t exactly true.
Liberals want government to stay out of our private lives but they do want it to manage big business to keep it from abusing things. Conservatives want government to leave business alone but they want to interfere with our private lives. Libertarians want government to leave our private lives and big business alone, the least government possible.
The problem I have with big business running free is the corruption and exploitation of people and the environment. The problem I have with conservatives micromanaging my personal life is that I don’t always agree with their interpretations of what is right. Conservatives have the view that their view of what is right must be the same for everyone, while I recognize that people are at different levels and different paths and it can be an error to overgeneralize.
I don’t agree with liberals, conservatives, or libertarians by the way. In politics as in philosophy I am a moderate centrist. I do lean a little towards the liberal side, mainly because they strive for loftier ideals, helping the poor, protecting the environment, reigning in unbridled greed, etc.
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kay-ms said
Princess, the belief among conservatives (most of them) is that gays are entitled to the same rights as heterosexuals. Most conservatives are not fighting against civil unions. The dispute is in changing the definition of marriage.
Conservatives are just trying to conserve Christian values in society. The liberals are trying to force a different set of values onto society and one of those ways is by taking away free speech. Making it illegal to call abortion murder by labeling it hate speech is one example. Making it illegal to stand up for Biblical values in a public forum is another. The government is being used to force Christianity out of society. And the liberal desire is to, as 1minion’s example showed, unite all religions in a sense by having one world religion and that one world religion will have nothing to do with our Creator… it will no doubt be some crap about how we are are own gods or something.
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kay-ms said
The main difference between Islam and Christianity (besides the obvious doctrines) is that Islam is based on the writings of one man for one theology. Christianity is based on the writings and witnessing of many different people who agree on the same theology. From that basis alone, Christianity has a better chance of being the truth. And it seems that Hinduism is written by many different people who do not all agree on any one theology. Christianity is the only faith that has the “credentials” to back it up. In general it’s more reasonable to scrutanize than to just accept all. Because most will be false and what good is it to support something that is false especially when it is harmful? And in religion that is especially true because all will be false except one. And many of those false religions are extremely harmful.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Hey Kay, Jesus himself quoted the Scripture where the Bible tells us we are gods. It is my opinion that the followers of Jesus missed the point of His teachings and put Him on a pedestal, worshipping the messenger instead of actually listening to His message (realization of Divine Sonship).
Of course I could be wrong!
About religions, it is your OPINION that all will be false except one, Kay. And of COURSE the one that is true just happens to be the one you subscribe to. Uh huh. Sure. Yep. How LUCKY you are! As for Hinduism having splinter groups, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Look at all the different denominations of Christianity, many of whom spend much of their time preaching about how every other denomination of Christianity has it wrong except for their little sect.
Christianity does not have “credentials” backing it up. The Bible is bad history, worse science, and questionable theology. Eyewitness testimony that Christians are so excited about quoting is notoriously unreliable, and when you couple that with errors of interpretation and translation, wow.
No, conservatives are a much greater danger to the freedom America was built on than liberals are, and mostly because they believe they have God on their side when in fact, quite often, they are doing the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught and what the Founding Fathers of the United States intended.
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kay-ms said
You, just like the Mormons, are taking those passages out of context. There is only ONE God and He did not create us to worship ourselves.
I strongly disagree with your conclusions. It sounds like you are saying that Jesus came to earth, claimed to be God knowing that He would be persecuted for doing so, died on the cross (willingly) just to tell us that we are gods? That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
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kay said
I have a comment in moderation.
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kay said
You, just like the Mormons, are taking those passages out of context. There is only ONE God and He did not create us to worship ourselves.
I strongly disagree with your conclusions. It sounds like you are saying that Jesus came to earth, claimed to be God knowing that He would be persecuted for doing so, died on the cross (willingly) just to tell us that we are gods? That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
And you are right, it is my opinion, along with billions of others, including those who witnessed Jesus’ life, crucifiction and resurrection and then died for Him and that belief.
The only thing you have to back up your opinion, is your opinion. It is more likely that you and others who believe similarly are manipulating the truth to fit what YOU WANT to believe… as per this that you said:
“Christianity does not have “credentials” backing it up. The Bible is bad history, worse science, and questionable theology. Eyewitness testimony that Christians are so excited about quoting is notoriously unreliable, and when you couple that with errors of interpretation and translation, wow.”
That “bad history, worse science and questionable theology” may seem to exist in some parts but a majority of the Bible is good history, good science, and theology that makes extremely good sense. That you are focusing on the seemingly negative which is the minority, shows your bias. And supports my assertion that you are manipulating the truth to fit YOUR opinionated doctrine. You are certainly not the first to do so and you won’t be the last.
As I stated, the Bible was written by many different people over many years. And they all allude to the same doctrine that Jesus is the only way. The different denominations of Christianity (true Christianity) all still have the same doctrine that Jesus is the only way to be saved. Which is the foundation of Christianity.
What exactly is the foundation of Hinduism? You have yet to even describe your god to me. Or maybe you did… and it is you?
And this makes no sense to me..
“And of COURSE the one that is true just happens to be the one you subscribe to. Uh huh. Sure. Yep. How LUCKY you are! ”
So, you’re saying that I could have picked a religion that I don’t believe to be the truth? Then why would I pick it?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
You pick Christianity because you were raised in a Christian culture, so it makes the most sense to you. If you were born in India, you would probably feel the same way about Hinduism.
The Hindu concept of the universe uses a different metaphor than the Christian view. Instead of a ceramic model of the universe where it is thought of as something that is made and something that is distinct and separate from the Creator, they think of the universe as the Self acting all the parts, a dramatic model as Alan Watts put it.
Alan Watts also explained the Hindu view quite nicely in terms of the diaphragm of a radio’s speaker. None of the sounds you hear coming from your radio are really what they seem to be. All the bird noises, human voices, traffic sounds and musical instruments are vibrations of a thin metal piece in your radio’s speakers. The announcer doesn’t come on in the morning and tell you that everything you will be hearing on that day’s broadcast are vibrations of the diaphragm in your radio’s speaker. Similarly, the universe doesn’t tell you explicitly that everything is vibrations of the Self.
Instead of focusing on the differences between different religions, what strikes me are the similarities. Eckhart Tolle (The Power of Now) is not the first spiritual teacher to notice that there is and only ever has been ONE spiritual teaching in all human history, that is expressed differently according to the culture it is in, and is diluted and polluted by cultural artifacts over time but still discernible to those who have the eyes to see it.
I actually agree with most of what you believe Kay, even if I see it a bit differently than you do, in a larger context where the root message is communicated differently in different cultures.
What is that message? That there is more to life than meets the eye, that we are creations or manifestations of a higher consciousness or power, and that it is in our best interest to surrender our will of what we want for our ego-selves to follow the will of that higher power, let go the ego, let go and let God, trust in God, etc.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
To amend what I said about there being more to life than meets the eye, that’s not exactly true.
Alan Watts once said that when he was talking about what he called “these things”, i.e. spiritual matters, that he would not rely on what he called “spooky knowledge” that is only accessible to a privileged few. In other words, what he would share is something that anyone and everyone can see directly for themselves if they open their eyes to look.
It is the sharing part where spiritual teachings get corrupted. It is impossible to truly communicate to another person what one experiences oneself. One can try to paint pictures with words to convey the experience, but when using words one is very limited in how much reality can be expressed. Words are symbols but maps are not the territory they represent, they only point to them.
It was very ignorant and disrespectful for that clown to say that Tiger Woods needs to convert from Buddhism to Christianity. Oh, the clown that said that probably really believes he is helping Tiger by offering that advice. It is possible to be a Buddhist AND be a Christian at the same time. There is no essential conflict between the two, because they are in different categories.
The biggest thing about Buddhism is direct experience. Buddhism does not rely on any dogma. It avoids labels and categories because the labels are not the same as what they strive to represent and people are easily confused by them. Alan Watts once described Zen as spiritual opthalmology in that it helps you see things clearer.
Many Buddhists say that Alan Watts didn’t teach zen; he taught Alan Watts. Still, I learned much from listening to that guy even though I don’t agree with everything he says about every subject.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Don’t you think that if there is a God who has a character similar to what the Christians believe that if anyone in any other culture sincerely surrenders his or her will to God that he or she will somehow be led to Christ, no matter by what name Christ is called?
Christians insist that the Christ within is called Jesus, no ifs ands or buts about it. I go with Shakespeare that a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Christ consciousness is the same as Buddha consciousness. I see Jesus teaching us the same lessons as Buddha, and I read the same Bible you do but obviously from a different perspective.
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Hors Service said
To my view, there is several big obstacles to The God being only the God of the Bible.
First, what do you make of all the religions and the people born before Jesus time? If there was a God, I think He would have left His commandements since the beginning of human history and prehistory, whereas Judaism doesn’t go this far. It doesn’t talk about mammouth hunting, for example. I can’t imagine that God left humanity in the dark at its beginning.
This is why I think it could have been more of a continuous revelation: God is guiding His creation at certain and very precise moments. Therefore, all religions are derivating from the same basis, only revealed at different moments.
Second, if God was the God of the Bible, where does all the other religions come from?
Third, why would be God only be interested in the Jews, the Chosen Ones? This really looks nationalist to me. And what about the people in America?
This, and the enormous amount of errors, mistakes, and exagerations in the Bible.
Therefore, I’m siding with the opinion that “all religions are true, in a certain way”. The truth can be obtained by several ways.
@Kay
Saying that abortion is murder isn’t forbidden.
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kay-ms said
“You pick Christianity because you were raised in a Christian culture, so it makes the most sense to you. If you were born in India, you would probably feel the same way about Hinduism.”
Saying that makes the assumption that we as adults can’t or don’t think for ourselves, that we never question or consider other possibilities of what the truth might be.
Christian missionaries since the time of Jesus have told people about the Gospel, people who were brought up with different beliefs and saw that Christianity made more sense, they believed in Jesus and what He did on the cross for all of us. And that Christianity is the one of the major faiths in the world shows that people do reconsider the faith that they were born into. You did. And I did too… and I continue to do so every time I hear arguments for other beliefs. And I have found that they only strengthen my belief in my faith. And, yes, I was blessed to have been born into the right faith, the same faith that my parents believed in. Thank goodness my ancestors were sensible enough to recongnize the faults of Catholisism.
While I agree that it is harder for someone in the Muslim faith or Mormonism etc. to leave that faith, it is not because it is more reasonable or because it was what they grew up with, it is because the false prophets or creators of these false religions made it so that it was more dificult to leave. Leaving their faith meant leaving their families and way of life.
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kay-ms said
or, I might add possibly even death.
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kay-ms said
Hi Hors… the liberals in this country are actively trying to make it “hate speech”. And because of recent changes in our laws, it is becoming more and more of a reality here that we can be jailed for what we say. It’s liberal ideology (socialism) hard at work and succeeding under the Obama administration.
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dorian said
you really think that, kay? i’m sad for you.
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horsservice said
@Kay
I do think you’ve perhaps got a serious misunderstanding about what socialism, liberalism and other religions really are.
First, socialism and liberalism are supposedly non-linked, even in some matters opposed, at least in french.
Socialism is not communism, it’s just the ideology that the market should be strongly regulated and the population helped by the state. For example, “The Welfare State” is an old american politic that can be associated with socialism.
Communism is the ideology associated with Marx’s teachings, and propose that the means of production should be the exclusive property of state.
Liberalism in economy is the ideology that everyone should be allowed to create and develop his/her own business with the minimum intervention of the governement.
Liberalism in politic is the ideology that every party should be allowed to exist and that people should vote freely.
Capitalism is the ideology that every business can and should be open to free investment from outsiders (capital).
Liberal in society is the ideology that everyone should be allowed to have one’s own customs and thinking.
Each of these exists independantly, although links does exist. You will notice the opposition between liberal and socialist.
/
Come on. Bush was seriously worse than that. Restricting civil rights in the name of war against terror (patriot act…), and calling every opponent anti-patriotic.
I’ve never read anything in american news that could be hinted as forbidding people to say that abortion is murder. To my view, it’s not a hate speech. Saying that abortionists should be murdered is, although. I do agree with the point of view that calling for murder, violence or discrimination is against public order.
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kay-ms said
TBG, I did a google search the other day to respond to your claim that Jesus said we are all gods. Which I already knew that He quoted that passage from the Old Testament but I was looking for other words of His to help explain your misconception… Anyway.. I googled “ye are gods” and guess what my first hit was…
Your “lovely” site…
http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/philosophy/ye_are_gods.htm
I want to get straight to the point and hopefully you won’t try to sidetrack that point with abstract ambiguous Hindu doctrine.
What is your motivation for this site? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
And I’m still waiting for you to answer the question of who your Supreme Being is; who do you worship as your Supreme Being?
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kay-ms said
Dorian, I have comments in moderation…
Yes, I do think that.. it might not be as close a reality as saying negative things about homosexuals or other religions but it is definitely on the liberal pro choice agenda.
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horsservice said
//Comment in moderation
@Kay
Why? Could you give me an example that pro-choices are for banning the saying that abortion is murder?
Saying negative things about homosexuals is hate speech for me, sorry. It’s like saying that left-handed people are dumbasses and should be banned.
Saying negative things about other religions (in themselves), though, isn’t the same, and it will never be banned, to my mind. For example, in France during the Muslim comics affair, there was some movements, some muslims thought it was insulting, but it went through.
But I think that people shouting at muslims that they are wrong and following the wrong faith during national prayer day is abusive. It shouldn’t be banned, but it is abusive.
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kay-ms said
I have to share this…
from wikipedia on Alan Watts …
When he returned to the United States, he began to dabble in psychedelic drug experiences, initially with mescaline given to him by Dr. Oscar Janiger. He tried LSD several times with various research teams led by Drs. Keith Ditman, Sterling Bunnell, and Michael Agron. He also tried marijuana and concluded that it was a useful and interesting psychoactive drug that gave the impression of time slowing down. Watts’ books of the 60s reveal the influence of these chemical adventures on his outlook. He would later comment about psychedelic drug use, “When you get the message, hang up the phone.” [4]
What a shocker…
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kay-ms said
Hors, your first question is why did God choose to reveal Himself when He did. That is one of the questions that no one knows the answer to. It doesn’t argue very well that He (the God of the Bible)doesn’t exist because He didn’t reveal Himself whey you thought He should have.
2nd question..”Second, if God was the God of the Bible, where does all the other religions come from?”
God’s enemy. That is certainly clear in observing the doctrines of Mormonism, budhism, Islam etc. It isn’t God who is being worshiped.
3rd “Third, why would be God only be interested in the Jews, the Chosen Ones? This really looks nationalist to me. And what about the people in America?”
God isn’t only interested in the Jews. The Jews were the chosen ones in the sense that He revealed Himself to the world thru them. His plan always included every human being; every race of people.
“This, and the enormous amount of errors, mistakes, and exagerations in the Bible.”
What errors, mistakes and exagerations? What about the parts that aren’t errors, mistakes and exagerations? How do you discount those parts?
These are weak arguments for rejecting the God of the Bible.
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kay-ms said
comment #25 & #30 to TBG are now posted… thanks
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horsservice said
I didn’t said God didn’t existed, but that God wasn’t only the God of the Bible. Different.
I am atheist, therefore I believe that no God exists. But I recognize that it is possible that He exists. But if He exists, I think He’s not only the God of the Bible. I don’t say that the God of the Bible doesn’t exist either.
1st question:
According to the Bible itself, God was revealed to the very first couple of humans. But Judaism was invented thousands of years after. I find this problematic: therefore I think God did reveal himself to the first humans, just not exactly in the way the Bible says. Otherwise, how do you solve this contradiction?
I notice that you answer by “God is transcendant”. Not a very satisfactory answer to me.
While I perfectly admit that He reveals Himself where and how He wants, I think, after reading the Bible and by logical thinking, that it is necessary that He revealed himself at the beginning.
2cd:
“God’s enemy”?! How in the world could God have enemies?! He created the Universe! He is omnipotent (although I have the reasonning that this is impossible)!
And how could religions older than Judaism created by enemies of God, when the idea of God didn’t even existed?
That’s the point: a lot of religions share the same points of doctrine, even if they differ on some details.
Why do you think they don’t worship God? Because they call Him Allah?
3rd:
His plan included all the races, but he choosed to reveal himself only on one continent, leaving everywhere else, notably America until the 16th century, in the dark? Even the Jews worshipped several Gods and several version of Yahve until monotheism took root.
Oh, I see: the answer is probably “God is Great and His Acts are Above human thinking, that’s why you can’t understand”?
4rd:
Oh dear. There’s hundreds. For example, according to the Bible, the first generations of men lived several centuries each. Jesus walked on water, and all the funny things the Prophets could do. At that time, there was a Prophet every fifty years or so. I perfectly admit that Jesus could be the last one, but it’s a bit strange, isn’t it? And did you read Mosaic Law? How we are supposed to stone a huge amount of people? And worse of all: the original sin. I totally disagree with that. I refuse to believe that God would make us pay for the sin of our fathers. I refuse to believe that the new-born baby is also responsible for eating the apple, and carry the Sin of mankind in his flesh. God may be transcendant and omniscient, but this goes against my sense of justice.
Therefore I think that the whole Bible is more a huge and terribly wise parable of the universe.
For the parts that aren’t exagerations: I don’t discount them. I didn’t say that the Bible was a bunch of lies.
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kay-ms said
“I didn’t said God didn’t existed, but that God wasn’t only the God of the Bible. Different.
I am atheist, therefore I believe that no God exists. But I recognize that it is possible that He exists. But if He exists, I think He’s not only the God of the Bible. I don’t say that the God of the Bible doesn’t exist either.”
Do you think it is possible that God has enemies who go against His will… and desire for themselves to be worshipped instead?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Hi Kay!
You quote me saying: “You pick Christianity because you were raised in a Christian culture, so it makes the most sense to you. If you were born in India, you would probably feel the same way about Hinduism.”
Then you comment: “Saying that makes the assumption that we as adults can’t or don’t think for ourselves, that we never question or consider other possibilities of what the truth might be.”
My point is that even the language you think in shapes your world view to some extent. The grammar of English, the subject verb object construction, is not necessarily the only way or even the best way to think of things.
On top of being conditioned to perceive the world a certain way because of the structure of the language you are exposed to, the conditioning of your culture has a tremendous influence on your thinking too, much more than most people realize.
I think it’s safe to say that MOST people have never even considered the possibility that the very tools they use to think with, i.e. words, have the limitations they do, or that the grammar of the language they think in does not accurately describe the actual structure of the universe.
As for Alan Watts, he had problems. He was an alcoholic and a smoker who basically drank himself to death. He was human, and I do not agree with everything he says about every subject. I am a fairly well-read well-educated person. If IQ tests mean anything I am in the 120 to 140 range which is a little above average. My vocabulary skills are in the 99.8% or higher range compared to the general population. Even considering the many thousands of books I’ve read, and the countless hours thinking and studying I’ve done, I have learned more from Alan Watts than from any other single human writing on any subject. Take it for what it’s worth.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
oh and again, even though I love reading, I don’t particularly enjoy reading Alan Watts. He is a very good talker though. I highly recommend anyone who wants to check him out to listen to an audio or video of him rather than check out one of his books. He says the same things in person as he writes about, but somehow when he’s talking it sounds so much better.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
um, there’s a comment in moderation that the previous comment refers to…also, I had tried to post this comment about that warning but had browser problems so there might be two warnings about the comment in moderation…sheesh
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horsservice said
The only ones that want to be worshipped are humans.
Frankly, I don’t think anything can possibly go against His Will, except humans, because He created us free.
If Satan would exist, I think he would be running a Power Against Your Soul business, and he would have a lot of success. He would show himself. More people would believe in him and worship him.
Did Satan invokers and Gods of the Undeads priests had any success? Do you see any demon around?
I think Evil is in the man. Like Good is.
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kay-ms said
“Oh dear. There’s hundreds. For example, according to the Bible, the first generations of men lived several centuries each. Jesus walked on water, and all the funny things the Prophets could do. At that time, there was a Prophet every fifty years or so. I perfectly admit that Jesus could be the last one, but it’s a bit strange, isn’t it?”
These are weak arguments also. You don’t know that man wasn’t able to live longer at that time, and you don’t know that Jesus didn’t walk on the water or that miracles didn’t happen thru the prophets.
Existence is a miracle in itself, the universe goes on and on, and science can’t even begin to explain how our existence came to be. Why would it be so hard to accept that miracles happen? Just because they don’t happen now? Or because they can’t be proven by our limited means of science?
It is hard to believe that people were used as slaves less than 150 years ago in this country! Or that there was a such a thing as separate water fountains for black people and white people a mere 50 years ago. It seems unrealistic to us because it is not a part of our lives now or ever was. But it did exist.
There are things that we understand now only because we were able to study them. They were probably considered miracles at one time. If miracles still happened today then maybe we would be able to explain them because we would be able to study them.
It seems unreasonable to dismiss events just because they do not happen today.
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dorian said
“It seems unreasonable to dismiss events just because they do not happen today.”
good point, kay…
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kay said
TBG.. no response to my comment #30?
Your site / commentary teaches that Jesus did not die for us. That Jesus was just a teacher telling us that we are all gods. I asked, I’ll ask again…
Does that make sense to you? That Jesus would expose Himself to persecution and death for this teaching?
By putting this anti Christian propaganda out there you are actively trying to lead people away from Christ.
Are you sure 100% that Jesus was / is not the Son of God? I hope you are because actively leading people away from Christ makes you His enemy if He is real.
Again, I really would like to know what your motivation is for those lies that you are spreading.
And how you can be so sure that your interpretation of scripture is correct. And what your method is for deciding that some scripture is true and other scripture is not.
Convince me that you are not a tool of satan.
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dorian said
kay is on fire, TBG…
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kay said
It’s one thing to express your views in a blog, like you do Dorian.. I know you pretty much believe the same as TBG concerning Jesus.. but to aggressively spread these views on the internet based merely on personal reasoning is what I don’t understand… if he is wrong, he’s jeopardizing a lot of souls. And that is why I’m asking him if he knows he is right 100% and how he knows he is right. What he is doing seems extremely ego driven to me.
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horsservice said
@Kay
Prophet Elie (I don’t know his name in english) invoked a column of fire to light his offer to God, isn’t it a miracle? Or call it “divine interventions” if you want.
Men lived longer at that time?! Well we haven’t found the bones of any of them. When they got until 40 in the prehistoric times, it was by luck.
Another thing.
The Bible doesn’t mention prehistory.
Big omission to me.
(but I have an answer to this problem: the Bible is designed to help the Jews from -3000 approx to the birth of Jesus, so they could spread the correct word of Jesus -new testament- for some of the next generations, until for example, Mahomet came up. In other parts/time of the world, other religions are taking this role.)
“science can’t even begin to explain how our existence came to be.”
It does begin to explain our existence, whetever you believe it or not. It just does, and it will go on explaining. And science doesn’t have the pride to pretend to explain everything, unlike religion.
“Why would it be so hard to accept that miracles happen?”
Miracles does still happen, my dear. Each year, miraculous healings are recorded and authentified, and the criterias are extremely strict. The human brain is fantastic and extremely powerfull.
But walking on water (Jesus didn’t? Well, I should perhaps my Bible again. But why is it known to be a miracle, then? But ok I believe you), turning water into wine and multiplying fishes is some other stuff.
“It is hard to believe that people were used as slaves less than 150 years ago in this country!”
Not really for me. I have confidence that there’s nothing really stupid that humans wouldn’t do.
But I understand the idea you want to pass;)
“There are things that we understand now only because we were able to study them. They were probably considered miracles at one time. If miracles still happened today then maybe we would be able to explain them because we would be able to study them.
It seems unreasonable to dismiss events just because they do not happen today.”
This coming from someone that doesn’t believe in evolution. You’re a surprising person, Kay.
So, if Jesus did miracles that we could explain with science today, then they weren’t miracles.
The basis of a miracle is that it’s not possible to explain it by science.
But let me be dubitative about obtaining 2 fishes from 1.
Isn’t it much more obvious to consider that all of these are parable inspired from real events? Like Jesus did? (parables)
Come on! Why would the Bible tell the litteral truth, since the new testament has been written decenies after by admirers?
Bible tell truths and lies. Like I’ve said before, if I say “A and B are correct”, A being correct doesn’t imply that B is also correct.
Could you also answer my other questions?
(And, to a personal extent, I am tired by believers answering contradictions with “God moves in mysterious ways”. At least, science is humble enough to say “i don’t know”.)
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kay said
He is propagating the biggest lie against God… that what Jesus did on the cross doesn’t save us. And then he tries to claim that he believes the same as I do… no you don’t.. not even close. Your deception is no different than the Mormon deception. They claim to be Christians but then discount what He did for us.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Well Kay, I do not claim to have absolute knowledge, but I do love truth above all else. The parts of Scripture where people read it to mean that the earth is only six thousand years old and that evolution doesn’t happen can be shown to be false by so much evidence of so many different types that it is clear to me at least that a literal interpretation is not supported by the evidence of the universe.
As for my spreading lies about Jesus, that is your opinion. My opinion is that Jesus is the son of God, but He was not the first nor the only person to realize divine Sonship. He tried to teach us that and those teachings can be seen in the Christian Bible of today although diluted and polluted as all spiritual teachings become once they are written down and interpreted instead of experienced directly.
So my motivation is a love of truth and a hatred of lies, take it or leave it. Also, compassion. There are a lot of people confused and miserable. If I can share my perspective from decades of study, prayer and personal knowledge then even if it is wrong there’s a chance at least it could help somebody else either to realize what I have realized or see more clearly that what I believe is wrong.
I do not see myself as discounting what Jesus did for us. If I burn in a lake of fire for honestly and sincerely trying to serve God and follow truth based on my limited abilities as a human then that would just show what type of Creator we have, wouldn’t it?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Also, about men living longer and other miraculous things from ancient stories, consider that for centuries these stories were passed down in an oral tradition before being written down, and that there are conventions to storytelling that by the use of particular phrases (long long ago etc.) signal that a particular type of story is being told.
Does it really make a difference if it rained for forty days and nights (the number forty is used a lot to signify a long time) or if the flood covered the whole earth or was local. I recently found a Christian website that quotes other Bible verses to show that the Bible clearly says Noah’s flood was a LOCAL one. The point is to get the message from the story, not get hung up on the details used to convey that message. Otherwise you are studying and worshipping the envelope the letter came in without ever really truly reading the letter it contained.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
two comments in moderation. Kay may not like the answers I give, but I am sincere and I am not avoiding her questions.
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kay-ms said
TBG, you are right, I do not like your answers because they really didn’t answer my questions.
Are you basing your interpretation of truth on a literal reading of Genesis? Why can’t you interpret that as a non literal reading then? Why do you then make up your own version of the “truth” because some insist it is a literal reading? In other words, how can you justify rejecting the whole Bible and it’s message just because you don’t agree with the view that some hold that Genisis is a literal account? Because that is what I take from your explanation. That your justification for concluding that Jesus is not our Saviour is because you don’t agree with the views of SOME that Genesis is a literal reading.
That is the answer you are trying to pass off to me?
And yOu did not explain how you know that your version is the truth. I respect that you’ve studied for as long as you have. And I do believe that you are sincere to some extent. But I think your pride and ego and getting in the way. I understand that I could be wrong but that is what it looks like to me. Those far east “religions” have caught you in their web of deceit and lies. Just like Mormonism, it teachings appeal to our ego and pride… who wouldn’t want to be a god?? Who wouldn’t want to believe that sin doesn’t exist? That is how these cults survive and thrive. These “religions” lead us away from God.. our Creator.
Also, you didn’t address my lack of understanding of how you could believe that Jesus would come as the Son of God just to tell us that we are all gods. And why He would suffer and die for this message.
And also, that ONE passage where Jesus quotes Old Testament scripture stating that we are all gods… why are you accepting that passage as truth.. and completely ignoring all of the other very clear messages of the New Testament that state clearly that there is only One God and our only way to be saved is thru Jesus, as He said Himself?
You are picking and choosing from the Bible to fit what you want to be the truth.
If I remember correctly, you don’t believe in the concept of sin. And that erroneous belief discounts the need for Christ, so please don’t say that you believe the same as I do. I see that as an extremely deceitful tactic.
I’m not trying to attack you here… I’m just trying to understand how you can justify your beliefs that you are actively spreading.
You say that you hate lies and love the truth… how do you KNOW that yours is the truth and that the belief that Jesus came to save us is a lie???
Those that end up in hell will be there because they reject what Jesus did for them, that is the Christian belief. YOu say that you are sincerely trying to serve God and follow truth, so please explain to me why you have chosen to reject the concept that we are sinners and that Jesus has given us salvation thru His death on the Cross. This IS what the Bible tells us… much much more than that ONE phrase that “ye are gods”. Which based on odds alone.. it is much more likely that that is the passage that is misunderstood or mistranslated than all of the other passages being misunderstood and mistranslated etc.
I’m not seeing your justification.
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kay-ms said
I have a comment in moderation…
Hors, you said:
“It does begin to explain our existence, whetever you believe it or not. It just does,”
How?
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horsservice said
@Kay, second comment
“Hors, you said:
“It does begin to explain our existence, whetever you believe it or not. It just does,”
How?”
Chemistry, biology, physic. It doesn’t explain whys, though. Only hows. And it’s only beginning, huge amounts left to discover…
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kay-ms said
Yes, I know about all that but I’m asking about how the first cell or matter was produced that all of the chemistry, biology and physics derived from.
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horsservice said
We don’t know yet. But there’s theories. It’s an old debate I have with you, and it’s not the subject of this post.
I’m confident that we will discover one day how life began, but I’m hesitant about the beginning of universe. It perhaps doesn’t need a beginning: nobody forces him to have a beginning, after all.
So, because we don’t exactly know yet how life and the universe began, we can’t “even begin to explain our existence”?! That’s a bit peremptory to me. What we have yet is a rather good beginning, to my opinion. We know how man did appear, until we’re stopped somewhere around -4 billions years, and we have functioning laws for the extremely small and the extremely big, although extreme conditions and some things (a huge amount of them, in fact) are out of reach of our models. But well, science is rather young.
Can’t see your first comment yet, but I will get back to the subject as soon as I see it.
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kay-ms said
I still stand by my comment that we can’t even begin to explain our existence.
Your answers that “there’s theories” with no examples and that “it’s not the subject of this post” are a “cop out”.
“Can’t see your first comment yet, but I will get back to the subject as soon as I see it.”
If you’re refering to my not answering your previous points, which I will get too… I think there are still some unanswered points of my from a ways back that you said you were going to answer and haven’t yet.
Clearly we have to pick and choose what to address… I would like you to give me just one theory on how to get something from nothing (where the first cell or matter came from that you claim there are theories for) and then I will address your point. Gotta start somewhere…
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay, as usual you completely misunderstand me. I’ll reply again later to try to more fully explain my view, but for starters, no, I do not reject the Bible because some insist on a literal reading of Genesis.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
It is my sincere belief that Jesus teaches us that we can have the same relationship with the Father He had, but that this teaching, even though it is still in the Bible, has been diluted, polluted and misinterpreted by His followers who chose to worship the messenger instead of actually listening to the message.
I read the same Bible you read, and I can see this clearly. For you, perhaps the Christian way is the only way. I believe God reaches different people according to where they are. If they are in a different culture in a different time, God reaches thme through a different religion.
The Bible says God is knocking at the door of your heart, and those who sincerely seek Him will find Him. I believe this too. Obviously you and I disagree on some issues, but not that one right?
Based on your comments, you don’t have a clue what the eastern philosophies teach. It’s not about avoiding the label of sinner or becoming God yourself. It’s about realizing that the idea of one being a separate thing living in a world made up of separate things is an illusion.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Also, something doesn’t have to come from nothing. Something could come from something. In other words, the Big Bang may not have been the first time the universe started. There may have been previous cycles of the universe. There is some evidence to support this idea. I provided a link to a wikipedia article about this in another reply to you in another thread on this blog in the past couple months.
Even if not, even if this current manifestation of the universe is the one and only one ever, that doesn’t necessarily “prove” that the God of the Christian Bible is the one who started it. I believe that the God I believe in is the same one as the one the Christians believe in, but obviously they don’t believe the same way I do.
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kay-ms said
TBG, I still don’t have any answers to my questions… why do you believe what you do?
You said: “It is my sincere belief that Jesus teaches us that we can have the same relationship with the Father He had, but that this teaching, even though it is still in the Bible, has been diluted, polluted and misinterpreted by His followers who chose to worship the messenger instead of actually listening to the message.”
I already know this.. you’ve said this several times… I’m asking how you have come to this conclusion. I have to say, that is one giant misunderstanding and misplaced martyrdom by many people if you are right. How can so many people who were there and knew Him get it so wrong and yet you, 2000 years later can get it right? What you are proposing is extremely unreasonable.
And also that Jesus came here to tell us that we are all gods and can have the same relationship with the Father as He does and that He was willingly persecuted and executed in order to tell us this? This is also very unreasonable to me… and you continue to avoid addressing this.
As an intelligent person you must have answers for this but for some reason don’t want to give them to me.
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kay-ms said
Previous cycles of the universe is not an answer to where the first cell came from.. it just “passes the buck”. That the universe always existed is not an answer either.. from the viewpoint of the atheist, if one can believe that the universe always existed which is illogical, they have no excuse to not believe in a Supreme Being which makes more sense that an eternal universe and our existence being nothing but an accident void of any meaning.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
What I’m saying is that what Jesus taught was taught by Buddha six hundred years before, and by others before Buddha perhaps even back to caveman days.
How do I know this? Study, prayer and personal knowledge. Am I 100% sure. No, but this makes more sense to me and also I’ve had flashes of insight sometimes that, if not real, would be total b.s. for them to happen.
Thousands of people had personal knowledge of people like Buddha and those before him too. Are you saying the followers of Jesus came six hundred years later and got it right? It seems more likely to me, and completely understandable, that much if not most of the interpretation of the message of Jesus comes from the difficulty of expressing spiritual teachings using language, i.e. symbols instead of communicating actual experience.
Jesus had to communicate what he experienced to other people by using the terms available to Him from that time and place. I’m not only talking about the language but also the culture, specifically the models of Deity and of the Universe. Iron Age Palestine desert nomads had a patriarchal social structure, and that is the form the Father God took to those people because of that.
I believe God transcends all categories of thought, including male and female and even being and non-being.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
As for Jesus coming to earth to be willingly persecuted and sacrificed in order to tell us this, that seems unreasonable to you. But consider what happens to those who today have a religious experience where they realize they are an expression of the cosmos. If it’s Billy Bob from the Bible Belt the only way he has of describing this is to tell others that he is Jesus Christ. That is not accepable in this culture, and Billy Bob may spend the rest of his days in an asylum. Back in the day though, he would have been stoned to death or crucified. Duh. What do you think happened to Jesus?
I’ve said before that if Jesus had been born in India, he would NOT have been crucified. Instead of being killed because of his God realization, he would have been congratulated.
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kay-ms said
What Jesus taught, according to His disciples, was that He is the only way to the Father… That was His main teaching… the message that God loves us and has given us a way to be with Him even though we are sinners. His other teachings were on how to be good; to be more like God. Are you saying that if someone taught earlier how to be good and treat others properly that they own that teaching? The concept of being good is ingrained in us. Budha or any one else didn’t “invent” that concept.
If you are saying that Jesus taught that we are not separate or whatever …
” It’s about realizing that the idea of one being a separate thing living in a world made up of separate things is an illusion.”
I ask you where do you get that from?? What passages?
And I guess, now you are saying that the Son of God came to earth to tell us that we are all gods but that He wasn’t able to communicate it properly thru language.. apparently He didn’t know that was going to be an issue, even though He is the Son of God as you acknowledge, and all of the people misunderstood His message and then He was willingly executed and then went back to Heaven… it DOESN’T MAKE SENSE!! Please, help me understand.
What you are saying is that only the people who follow Buddha’s teachings will understand Jesus’ teachings? Why did Jesus never mention Buddha? This is ridiculous.
Where did Jesus say anything about being an expression of the cosmos? Jesus talked about God the Father and Heaven… why are you choosing to ignore this and propogate this other stuff instead??
I’m still trying to get these answers .. so far, your answer do not make sense.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Previous cycles of the universe does not “pass the buck” Kay. If the universe always existed, which is a possibility, then something did not come from nothing. Something came from something. It could be that some physical “constants” are different in different manifestations of the universe, which would be God playing around with them to manifest different versions of the universe for fun.
As I said, it is NOT illogical to believe that the universe always existed. Yes there was a big bang that manifested this current version, and this might indeed be the one and only time the universe has existed. OTOH, if it happened once, it could have happened before, perhaps countless times. This is what the Hindus believe.
And what is the trip some Christians have by claiming that unless THEIR interpretation of God was involved the way they THINK He was, that the universe and life happens “by accident” and is “without meaning”? It could be that just because of the way things are, the way they are arranged, that the Big Bang happens, not an accident. As for life, that is even closer to certainty that when certain chemicals are present in certain conditions they WILL react in certain ways that eventually form living systems when they reach a certain level of complexity.
As for meaning, I wrote a web page about that. What if the universe and life have no meaning? That is NOT a bad thing. Purposelessness is a keystone of Buddhist thought. The universe isn’t goal driven. It is what it is at each moment as it unfolds, like a dance or a song. You don’t go to a concert just to hear the end of the song. You appreciate each instant of the melody in the context of the notes that came before it and the notes that come after it, and also the silence from which the notes came, into which they fade, and which is behind and beneath the notes even as they play.
Here is a link to my web page about the meaning of life.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Thank you for your patience in explaining your difficulties understanding what I say and asking for further explanation. Again you misunderstand me Kay, even when what I said was in black and white right there on the screen for you to read.
Being an expression of the Cosmos is another way of saying we are created by God. It’s just that I’m not using the ceramic model of the universe where God is the potter and we are clay figurines. That story is a metaphor and there are other metaphors used by other cultures to describe the same reality.
The part about the idea of being separate is an illusion is NOT from any Bible passage per se, although hinted at in places. As I quite plainly said, that is the cornerstone of Hindu teachings. Moksha, or liberation, is the realization of this.
Based on your comments, you also still misunderstand what I’m trying to say about Jesus and Buddha. What I’m saying is that Buddha taught us to go beyond thoughts and feelings to the door of our heart where the higher awareness that manifests the universe is knocking, and Jesus teaches us the same.
That page about Ye are Gods that you don’t like explains how when Jesus says “I am the way, the truth…” and that no one gets to the Father except through “me”, that “I am”, that “me” is the higher Self within each of us. This isn’t really different than saying the Holy Spirit indwells.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
two comments in moderation that Kay STILL might not understand…someone else weigh in here. Dorian, Princess, E_E…do you any of YOU have any clue what I’m trying to say?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Actually Kay, you have had your questions answered, many times and probably more than needed. If you can’t understand my answers, that might not be my fault. Consider opening your mind a little to different world views, other perspectives.
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kay-ms said
I was afraid you were going to use that excuse… sorry , but I’ve asked you direct questions… and you give me non direct answers.
I’m really interested to know what you tell yourself about Jesus.. if you believe He was the Son of God as you’ve said, how do you reconcile your beliefs of Him and the documented history that He went to Jerusalem knowing that the Jews wanted to kill him? Why did He willingly die??? I’m left believing that He willingly died to say that we are all gods.. you haven’t given me any other answers.. and I’ve told you how that does not make sense. I’m just asking for your understanding of this situation.
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kay-ms said
And I AM opening my mind to other views… and I’m asking questions… do you expect me to take on other views without understanding them??
I’ve asked you over and over and over why you choose to reject the Bible.. more specifically, how you justify rejecting some parts and not others. I’ve been detailed in these questions… you are choosing to reject doctrine from the Bible that has been repeated over and over and instead choose to focus on one passage that we are all gods. As I’ve stated, the odds are that your one passage is misunderstood and the rest is accurate.
I’m asking for SPECIFICS and you are not giving them to me… this is what I get..
“How do I know this? Study, prayer and personal knowledge. Am I 100% sure. No, but this makes more sense to me and also I’ve had flashes of insight sometimes that, if not real, would be total b.s. for them to happen.”
I’m asking for SPECIFICS on WHY it makes more sense to you. I’ve presented examples that do not make sense to me and I’m asking you to help me understand… and now you are pulling the “if you can’t understand that may not be my fault” bs. I’m not seeing the honesty that you frequently like to say you are about. I’m seeing avoidance because you do not have the answers.. and if you continue to hold to your beliefs without considering my points and being able to argue them then you should re-evaluate your honesty policy.
“Are you saying the followers of Jesus came six hundred years later and got it right?”
What do you mean by 600 years later?
And even if it was 600 years later they still have a better chance at getting it right than you do 2000 years later. Considering the translation issues and all.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay, the sound of the rain needs no translation.
So it is with spiritual matters experienced directly. I can’t share with you what I personally experience because words are inadequate to the task.
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kay-ms said
wow, have you been duped.. you are “gone”… you are clearly going to ignore my points and instead preach to me about buddhism. Which, those teachings are so abstract and so ridiculous… I wouldn’t be so disrespectful to your “religion” if you would have made an attempt to aproach this honestly and given me some answers of substance but you haven’t and I know that because you continue to avoid my specific points.
It’s apparent that you do not know the answers and instead of trying to find them you ignore the questions. I wholy reject your claim of the search for honesty and truth based on our conversation so far. I think you are full of it.
That you can’t adequately explain to me your justification for spreading anti Christian propoganda on the internet.. that you can’t defend your view… only supports my view that you are a tool of satan.
(I’m asking to learn more and you give me this?…..
“Kay, the sound of the rain needs no translation.
So it is with spiritual matters experienced directly. I can’t share with you what I personally experience because words are inadequate to the task.” )
what a bunch of crap. How is anyone supposed to be “enlightened” when it cannot even be taught??
Just one more question you will ignore most likely.
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horsservice said
@Kay
“I still stand by my comment that we can’t even begin to explain our existence.”
How surprising.
“Your answers that “there’s theories” with no examples and that “it’s not the subject of this post” are a “cop out”.”
““it’s not the subject of this post” are a “cop out””:
No. And you should know it, since we have already had this debate, and I never flee debates (because I’m a damn Scot, as you are soooo convinced of.). I just didn’t wanted to get into that again, because I would have liked your answer on the subject “God can’t be only the God of the Bible”. Sorry, religion vs science isn’t -again- the subject there. But if you insist…
“there’s theories”: 1) I’m not an expert, and it’s very complicated science, so I don’t really understand the details.
2) most of them are still speculations
3) Theory of ropes, Supersymmetry, theory of the multiverse. Here are examples. Already given.
4) What if the universe is eternal? God is. So why not the universe?
5) None of these theories is perfect.
“If you’re refering to my not answering your previous points, which I will get too… I think there are still some unanswered points of my from a ways back that you said you were going to answer and haven’t yet.”
Oh, sorry, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here, I was refering to the comment you had in moderation, which I would have liked to answer. After reading it, you doesn’t answer to me in it, so I’m still waiting for your answers, which are quite interesting to me.
I don’t usually miss points volontarly, but I had to cut some, because of lack of time and space.
“Clearly we have to pick and choose what to address… I would like you to give me just one theory on how to get something from nothing (where the first cell or matter came from that you claim there are theories for) and then I will address your point. Gotta start somewhere…”
OK:
Getting the first cell (easy): ARN world, lipidic world. (still not fully satisfying, but it’s a beginning)
Getting the first matter (not easy): previously mentionned upper in the post.
But since we have already a lot of the thing consecuting from this (evolution, physics, quantums…), we could consider we have advanced quite a bit.
So you see, there’s a BEGINNING of explaining our existence. Nobody is pretending to have the FULL answer.
BUT I’m not interested in this domain of questions right now and here (although I would like to have an answer to “where does God come from?”, maybe later on), but I’m rather interested in you answering the issue I’ve mentioned about “God can’t be just the God of the Bible”.
THIS is what I would like. Please do.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Enlightenment can NOT be taught or even talked about adequately. THAT is the point I’m trying to get across to you. The teachings of Buddha or Jesus are like a finger pointing to the moon, but some people get stuck on the finger and insist on sucking it for comfort instead of investigating what it points to.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Perhaps those teachings seem abstract and ridiculous to you because you are not ready for them. Obviously your path for now at least is mainstream Christianity. More power to you. You go, girl. But my sincere opinion is that is NOT the only way for everyone. Actually I believe it IS the only way, but not in the limited strict literal fundie style interpretation.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
there’s a comment in moderation before the one about Kay possibly not being ready for Buddhist teachings.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and I have answered every question you put to me. If you don’t understand the answers, there’s only so many ways I can rephrase it or try to explain further and if you STILL don’t understand…well…let’s not go there.
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kay-ms said
yeah, then you call me names. Which is clearly a tactic to get me to leave the debate.
Ok, I’m just going to make my questions even more direct and simple (if that’s possible).
1. Do you believe that Jesus was crucified?
2. Do you believe that He willingly was crucified as the Gospels indicate?
3. If not, why do you choose to not believe these particular claims in the Bible?
4. If so, am I correct in assuming that you believe that He (the Son of God) willingly died for the sake of the message which is that we are all gods and can have the same relationship with the Father that He does?
5. If I am incorrect in making that assumption, can you tell me why He willingly went to His death?
6. Can you answer these questions??
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kayms said
I have a comment in moderation.
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Enkill_Eridos said
@Kay
1. Yes, but this is not a requirement to be saved
2. Yes, and this is the ONLY requirement to be saved as stated in the New Testament.
4. Yes, but you will have to define gods…In my understanding and belief we would not be the same as the Supreme God but we would be better than we are now. Would we be deserving of worship and adulation? No, only the Supreme God, creator of the universe is deserving of complete worship and adulation. I believe I would have a better understanding of spiritual matters and the universe. But I would not be an omniscient being. If you define a god as an omniscient being with the power to create universes and life forms, than the answer is a definite no. But if you are saying I would seem like a god to a human being on this plane of existence. The answer is yes.
5. He willingly went to his death because the Supreme God, Creator of the Universe, and his father told him to. He willingly went to his death because he wanted every human being that God loved them all, and they all had a place in heaven next to their creator. He had the opportunity to deny humanity this and he did not. Because Jesus loved humanity just as much as God does, he took the complete punishment of every sin against God past, present, and future. All to give them the opportunity to live in the kingdom of heaven, and actually live.
6. I answered them all.
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kayms said
Thank you EE for answering those questions. I agree with your answers for the most part. I wonder if anyone else will answer them?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
1. If Jesus actually was a historical personage, He might have been crucified. There are problems with the story as given in the gospel from the point of view of Jewish and Roman laws and practices, in addition to the timing (can Friday afternoon to Sunday morning be oonsidered three days?)
2. He might have been willingly crucified. Some people have a martyr complex, and Jesus even if God in the flesh may have done that for a kick, for fun.
3. If not, it would be because of the conflict with Jewish and Roman practices of the time, plus other discrepancies in the accounts given in the New Testament.
4. Yes. Such a message would be worth dying for. Another possibility is that Jesus was a horse thief and was crucified for that crime. That story is in more than one Gospel, and I wrote a song about it.
5. If He was crucified for being a horse thief, He may not have gone willingly.
6. Yes.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
That song was satire, but it is not very difficult to find problems and inconsistencies within the Bible itself that make it difficult to believe even when not taken literally. However when read symbolically, it makes perfect sense to me.
Words are symbols, even when taken “literally” it IS being taking symbolically, although at a much lower level of understanding. The main problem being that words are inadequate to truly communicate experience. A verbal description is but a skeleton of the actual experience being described. Another problem arises with translation, and then you have every reader or listener interpreting what they see or hear according to their own limited understanding in terms of what the words mean to THEM and influenced heavily (but usually unknowingly) by the conditioning of their culture.
Jesus teaches (and I use the present tense to indicate He is NOT dead) to answer the knock at the door of your heart and surrender one’s will to God. Yep. I agree with that. The eastern philosophies call it “heart-mind” rather than strictly the physical organ that pumps blood.
I really do see Jesus teaching us the same things as the eastern philosophies, only expressing them in ways that Iron Age Palestinian desert nomads can relate to. I see his teachings getting corrupted to the point where most Christians have only heard a castrated version of the Gospel and get hung up on worshipping the messenger instead of listening to the message.
Those are my honest opinions. I mean no disrespect to Christ, Christians or Christianity.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and there’s a big difference that I admitted early on many threads ago in our discussion between what I KNOW of science versus what I BELIEVE in spiritual matters.
Obviously my personal experience is not something I can truly share, no matter how many words I write trying to describe it. Also, that would count as “spooky knowledge” and is not as credible as what can be experienced oneself directly by examining fossils or reading the scientific literature oneself in the case of human evolution for example.
However, it is NOT necessary to invoke “spooky knowledge” for anyone to realize that the idea of living as a skin-encapsulated ego in a world that is not-me outside the skin is an illusion. What is here is here for all to see. It just takes a different way of looking at it.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
as far as omniscience and omnipotent goes, eastern philosophies have a different conception.
You are digesting food, regulating hormone levels, and doing all kinds of things without consciously knowing all the details. When you tighten your hand into a fist, can you really describe all the activities of every muscle and nerve involved? An anatomist might be able to give long Latin names for all the pieces, but still can’t close his fist any better than you do.
If your foot is as much a part of your body as your head, the sun is also and so are all the other stars and galaxies. Everything is connected, and the same way you digest your food without being aware of it you also are the fusion reaction of the farthest star.
You CAN realize this, know it as deeply as you can bang on a table and say this is HERE! That’s what Buddha (and Jesus in my opinion) taught us.
BUT one really can’t TEACH or even talk about enlightenment because of the failings of words to truly communicate direct experience. What one can do is give hints on how to experience it yourself.
Basically, such awareness is at the ground of every state of consciousness, whether you’re angry, happy, sad, or whatever, enlightenment is at the base of all of it, beneath and beyond thoughts and feelings. You don’t have to go anywhere or do anything to realize this.
If you ask the question what do I have to do to get enlightenment, asking the question that way, thinking of oneself as a separate ego from the rest of the universe, gets in your own way.
It’s like when Buddha told his followers that to end suffering they must get rid of desire. Eventually they came back and said but now we are desiring not to desire. Then Buddha said you’re starting to get the point.
It is impossible to commmit a truly selfless act as long as one sincerely believes oneself to be a skin-encapsulated ego. Even when trying to be good, the motivation (to save one’s own skin, to get one up on the universe) ruins the attempt.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
what the heck…four long posts in a row and none went to moderation? It would be funny if this short comment does now!
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
The Hindu saint Ramana Maharshi’s most profound teaching was silence. For many years he said nothing, but the sheer presence of his aura inspired those around him. Eventually he did speak and even wrote a book called “Who Am I?” that asked the deepest question one can ask oneself. Who are you, really, deep down inside?
Oh you might say John Jones or Jill Smith or whatever and give details of a biography such as your profession, education, family life or whatever, but that’s not the answer.
When people would ask Ramana Maharshi who they were in previous lives he would turn it back on them by asking “Who is asking the question?” Find out who you really are, deep down inside, and it will be clear to you.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Silence was the teaching preferred for those whose minds were attuned to receive the teaching, but for those who weren’t, Ramana Maharshi used speech. He would talk to whatever level that person was at, which is why some of his teachings seem to contradict other sayings of his. That is why one must understand the context of who is being addressed and at what level and what path they are taking.
That’s another thing, the realization that not everyone is at the same place spiritually or otherwise. Some people need just a nod and a wink for the light bulb to flash over their heads. Other people need to follow a rigorous course laid out for them because that is what they THINK they need and so it is. The realization that there are different paths for different people that can still end up at the same place is obviously different than the mainstream Christian viewpoint that there is only ONE way that is the same path for everybody. I respectfully disagree with that interpretation as it is usually understood by those who claim it. I actually DO agree with it, but NOT the way THEY say!
Christianity is a form of bhakti yoga, a yoga of devotion in this case to Jesus Christ. That is a perfectly valid path for people to reach enlightenment. Nothing wrong with it.
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dorian said
Jesus was a man, a martyr. but was he really the son of God?
the question was asked by an non-believer friend. my answer was “it’s possible”. because anything is possible, innit? i leave the atheists and fundies to the debates. whether or not Jesus was the son of God, it’s all the same to me. Jesus symbolizes what it’s like to be good. it’s not about worshiping a God. it’s about emulating the ways of this Christ-like being. and so shall our souls be closer to perfection, or God.
Jesus was a perfected soul; a CHRIST. he was a martyr. two definitions of “martyr” : –noun
1. person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2.a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause.
there have been martyrs before and after Jesus. in the roman catholic religion, many of the early christian martyrs were canonized as saints. the more recent ones have to have performed at least three “miracles” to be considered for sainthood. but that’s another story.
Jesus the man was undoubtedly a mystic and may have been an extraordinary magician, a master illusionist (walking on water, etc..). Jesus was a powerful and effective healer: giving sight to a blind man, raising lazarus from the “dead” (he may have been in a deep coma, after all, who knows?), etc.. we can’t all be gods, but we can be Christ-like. As in following Jesus’ ways and teachings and doing things to benefit humanity for the sake of spreading goodness. imo, christians spend too much time worshiping Jesus. why not spend more time emulating him and thanking him instead? Jesus is the perfect role model. there are many more hymns and gospel songs about worship and praise for the lord than there are about gratitude for all that Jesus sacrificed himself for.
to paraphrase TBG, (#72) each of us experiences spiritual matters in our own personal way, and attempting to describe those experiences to others with words would be inadequate and oftentimes the true essence is lost in translation.
end of flash rant.
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kayms said
What exactly is the “enlightenment?” the understanding that everything is connected?
what is the advantage of believing that we are connected to everything?
Why is it “wrong” to believe that we are not connected?
If a star blows up, I’m not going to feel it. If my foot blows up, I will certainly feel it. Is This FACT unimportant?
(And btw, I hope you understand that this stuff is way out there.. I would appreciate you taking that into consideration and not expect me to get it right away and then call me names out of frustration. )
I can understand that in a very abstract way, everything is connected… so what?? I don’t understand why knowing this has to discount what Jesus did for us.
what is so great about this “enlightenment”?? Apparently it is THE most important thing… knowing… knowledge… well, knowledge is power and desiring power is derived from EGO.
Where as, believing in God, acknowledging that He IS our Creator and we are at His mercy is humbling.
Yeah, I know.. there’s something in there about selflessness and separateness being an ego issue but the bottom line is “enlightenment” … knowledge.. for one’s self.
Just as the Mormons claim that they are not about ego, “it’s all about what Jesus did for us”, yet their doctrine says differently… it’s about their works (they acknowledge that they can’t get into Heaven without them. And the fact that they believe that they will one day be equal with God, they will be a god themselves.. hmm sounds familiar.
We ARE separate… we ALL have free will. We ALL make individual choices. And we ALL are responsible for those choices. Some make hurtful choices.. choices that hurt others or God, and they SHOULD be held accountable. It’s called sin and it does exist. All the “enlightenment” in the universe won’t change that.
The Bible addresses our human desire for “enlightenment” in the very first chapter… it was satan who tempted Eve with knowledge and power…
Genesis, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
“you will be like God, knowing..”
Buddhism is just yet another of satan’s “religions” full of his lies; promises of knowledge and being as God that only lead us away from Him, which IS satan’s goal. That’s why I said you are “duped” along with all the other “enlightened ones”. And satan uses your own ego to dupe you by lying to you and telling you that there is no such thing as sin and that you are a god also. You can’t get more egotistical than that!!!
I DON’T CARE about “enlightenment”. I DON’T CARE about gaining knowledge about our physical existance. I care about my relationship with my Creator who has shown over and over that He loves me.
YOu keep referring to Jesus… I would like you to please define Jesus according to your beliefs… you haven’t been very clear about this. You also keep referring to your belief in God… could you please define Him also? I’ve asked you this several times now.
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kayms said
Both of you, Dorian & TBG, have discounted the Gospel writers and/ or their writings.
Is it because TBG, you can’t see how Friday to Sunday could be considered 3 days?
As explained in the NIV… the Jews counted part of a day as one day. … friday saturday sunday = 3 days.
What I don’t understand is why if there was a conspiracy, if it was all made up, if King James influenced / changed the scripture… why doesn’t it all fit together perfectly then? If you are going to falsify something or make somethign up wouldn’t you want to eliminate the seeming inconsistancies? Or avoid them to begin with?
There is so much more to argue FOR the truth of the Gospels as opposed to the “what ifs”.. like “maybe the person was in a coma”.. or “maybe Jesus was a good magician”. These are excuses to me.. excuses to not believe.
People died for Jesus because they believed, they saw the miracles.
So where are the other magicians then? Surely if he was a good magician others would have been able to do the same.. how come we don’t know of them? How come millions don’t believe in them as the Son of God?
And ultimately, to deny Jesus’ deity is to deny our sinful imperfect selves. To deny Jesus diety is to say that you don’t need him.. that there is no need for salvation.. that God will accept us in His presence as the sinners that we are. God is too great to have unredemptive sinners in His presence.
Dorian, when people praise God and worship Him it is because He IS great (there is no one greater!), and this apparently is hard for some people to accept, but He DESERVES to be worshiped and by worshiping Him we are thanking Him for what He does for us.
TBG, for those that don’t hear of the Gospel, surely God judges them accordingly, fairly.
For those that do hear of what Jesus has done for them, that is their only way to be saved… if they reject Him, God judges them accordingly also.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Look Kay, as usual, you have it bass ackwards. Buddhism and such is NOT about fulfilling the ego but is about seeing it for the illusion it is.
In other words, surrendering your desire for self-aggrandizement and putting yourself in accord with God’s will instead, answering the knock at the door of your heart and allowing yourself to be filled with the Holy Spirit. That is what Jesus teaches, and what Buddha teaches, and everyone else. It is not a lie. It’s just your misunderstandings of it that make it seem so to you.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Of course buddhists don’t use the terms God or Holy Spirit but for good reasons. People get easily confused by labels and mistake the map for the territory. Buddhism is not about dogma or scripture but is about experiencing spiritual truth directly.
You asked me to explain my views and motivations further. I know you disagree with them, but I am sincere and honest in my inquiries and my discourses on this matter. I have good reasons to believe what I do, and if you were in my shoes and have seen what I’ve seen and know what I know I dare say you would have similar if not identical views to mine.
God bless you and yours. TBG
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I posted two comments. The first went to mderation and is there still. This third comment is to note that the first one is in moderation.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
as for defining God, that is something I can’t do. Nobody can. The Hindus recognize this and say that all that can be positively said about God are negatives, it is not this, it is not that. God transcends all categories of thought.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay, I do not argue that Jesus is not a divine being. I argue against Jesus being God. That kind of theology is really dangerous and makes something that is supposed to be a monotheistic practice and turns it into a polytheistic practice. Angels are divine beings, Jesus is a divine being, the messiah and the son of God. Jesus’ status as a divine being (divinity) is not what I question. It is the doctrine that says Jesus is the Creator, the Father, and the Son. There are passages that may seem like this doctrine is completely sound, but it only seems completely sound because of the ignorance to the complete Hebrew theology. It’s just like the Christian doctrine of Satan.
Just because the word Satan is a noun does not mean it represents a being. So you know the definition of a noun it is a person, place, thing, or idea. If you read the Talmud you would know that the word Satan refers to an idea. It is the definition of that feeling that everyone sometimes get that compels you to do something that does not follow what God wants you to do. The Talmud is very clear that the term Satan scripturally refers to something that is internal not external. The theology Christianity is based on is not fully used, there are many reasons for that. The most likely reason is that by Ancient Hebrew law, you cannot be a follower of the Ancient Hebrew religion without being able to prove your genealogical line. This means the gentiles (people not belonging to one of the twelve tribes of Isreal.) did not have access to study these texts until recently. It was translated into English from Hebrew in 1918. That is the first English translation that I know of. The Hebrew texts actually follow an order. The Tanakh(The Old Testament.) is to be studied first. It is to be referred to throughout ones whole entire life, since it deals with the core beliefs. The Talmud is the next step, it explains some of the things that are confusing and puts things in a better prespective. It also tells about spiritual matters and how to become closer to God, it also touches briefly on God’s plan as it pertains to humanity as a whole. There is more to the Universe than what humanity has been told or has even discovered for ourselves. I am sorry to go against every fundamentalists beliefs at this next statement, but we are not the center of the universe. Actually God’s plan of salvation did not start at Adam and Eve. It started long before that, we were supposed to assist in his plan. But we put ourselves in the position to need to be on the recieveing end of it.. But I digress the final enstallment of the word of god is what is known as Sepher Yezirah. Now this last text was for those that dedicated themselves to God and to the guidance of the Tribes of Israel to enhance their spiritual bodies and thus their walk with God. There was very strict Ancient Hebrew Laws that regarded the study of this text. 1.) You needed to be close to 40. 2.)You needed to be married and have a family. 3.)You had to have a strong moral character, and recite verses of the Torah from memory. The Torah is all the books written by Moses. Which is not the entire Tanakh. All of these are considered the Word of God by the people of Israel. Therefore Christianity should also consider these books as the Word of God as well. Since their religion comes from this theology. All of the Apostles had a very good understanding of the concepts found in these books. (Perhaps because Jesus taught them.) The problem with all organized Christianity is that: “We are all saved therefore we do not need these spiritual practice.” Wrong even though you are guaranteed to get into heaven that does not mean you can neglect study or even decide that something that IS part of the Word of God is not realavent. There is more to God than just the fundamental (core) teachings. There is a side that enhances your spiritual growth (walk with God.)
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
All this discussion and disagreement about the nature of God reminds me of the 19th century poem by John Godfrey Saxe called The Blind Men and the Elephant.
It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind)
That each by observation
Might satisfy the mind.
The First approached the Elephant
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side
At once began to bawl:
“Bless me, it seems the Elephant
Is very like a wall.”
The Second, feeling of his tusk,
Cried, “Ho! What have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear.”
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Then boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake.”
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“’Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right
And all were in the wrong.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
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Enkill_Eridos said
I don’t understand why I get sucked into religious debate when I really want to debate politics. Because politics are what is really important, it doesn’t matter to me if Bob and Sue next door follow Islam or Christianity. God or a religion is not running this country, people are!
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kayms said
why do you put your faith in one man’s teachings, Siddhartha Gautama, instead of in the unified witnessing of the many people who wrote the books of the Bible?
What is Gautama’s authority or source for his teachings?
From http://contenderministries.org/buddhism.php
“If you study what Buddhism teaches, however, you must conclude that there can be no harmony between the two. They are opposite in almost every way and one would have to deny Christ and the Bible in order to embrace Buddhism as a religion that also leads to God and salvation.”
I would say so… the Buddhists desire is to reach “Nirvana”… which means that they cease to exist.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
First off, I do NOT put my faith in Buddha or any other person. I do put my faith in the higher power that manifests the universe and all of us. Buddha started a discourse on how to get in touch with that higher power, some techniques to get past the self-centeredness of our egoselves, but Buddha is not an authority the way westerners think of spiritual leaders.
He pointed the way and gave hints, but it is an active dialogue, not something static and rigid.
That source you gave focuses on Theraveda buddhism, which may be the oldest written sources but I think I wrote you once before about how the Mahayana Buddhists believe that even though their practices are the last revealed they were in fact the first taught by Buddha to his intimate disciples, the ones smart enough to “get” it. The Pali canon by way of contrast was written for those who needed a more rigorous path spelled out in detail for them, in other words, for the biggest dunderheads, the village idiots of Buddhism.
No your source misunderstands Buddhism, and I’m not surprised considering it’s main purpose is to try to pick holes in Buddhist thought in order to preach Christ at them.
btw, Nirvana does not mean cease to exist. It means becoming one with that higher consciousness, surrendering one’s will completely to God (except Buddhists don’t use the word God).
Oh the EGO ceases to exist, but that’s a good thing because that is just a social construct anyway. The ego has its uses, but can get in its own way sometimes.
For example, Your saying earlier that those seeking enlightenment are doing so to gain ultimate knowledge and power? WRONG! those who have such a motivation do NOT reach enlightenment because their motivation ruins the project.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Well E_E, for many people their religious beliefs strongly influence their political choices. As discussed before, we really can’t separate religion and politics on this blog. We can choose which posts to read, which to ignore, and which to reply to.
As for Kay, that same source she gave for the anti-Buddhist garbage has even more ridiculous and more clearly wrong anti-evolution garbage. Now THAT is a subject where I am on much firmer ground. We have the fossils. We win.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and that’s the BIGGEST thing about buddhism, you DON’T put your faith in ANYONE else’s word for it. You experience it YOURSELF! Firsthand knowledge, not secondhand from a book, not thirdhand from some other guy’s interpretation of that book, no, you get it direct from the source. Now that’s something I can appreciate.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Also you are looking at one teaching when there are many on the subject of Nirvana. Nirvana is actually when you are no longer apart of the cycle of life. Some Buddhists believe you cease to exist because they believe there is nothing else but the cycle of life. But then again some Buddhists believe that Nirvana is just the next step. There are many Buddhist teachings that if you actually read you can see this. (The Tibetian Book of the Dead teaches you how to chose to attain Nirvana, or repeat a life on Earth via reincarnation.) And Buddhism really doesn’t clash with the theology of Christianity. Just the fundamentalists viewpoint, and the Church. Which believe it or not you do not have to agree fully with fundamentalist teachings or the Church to be a Christian. You just have to agree that Jesus died for your sins so you can goto heaven. This is the only way to heaven in Christian theology. Believing in this is the only way to be a Christian, anything after that is just supplemental and should be the believers decision on whether or not it is actually accurate. Because God does not make doctrines and dogmas. The organized church does, and the organized church is led by men. You only need to follow God’s Word and how you interpret that is up to you.
And TBG is correct the attainment of Enlightenment is to have a very good understanding of things at a spiritual level. No one can teach you how to understand. No one can really teach you anything, mainly because most people learn by doing it themselves. For example, a teacher can talk all he wants about the order of operations. But without practice and the student actually putting an effort towards learning the student never learns.
The same thing can be said about spiritual matters. You can listen to a guy in a suit and ugly hair every Sunday for your whole life and still not fully understand Christianity, and the teachings of Christ. Listening to that man in the suit will not make you grow spiritually. The only way for that is to study God’s Word and study the impact God makes on a daily basis. There is proof of this in history. Where “believers” did things against God, just because the Church said it was okay and it was “God’s Will.” This shows a complete lack of understanding of concepts in the bible.
Also something I have yet address. The King James Transliteration (It really isn’t a true translation.) has many ideas that were actually tailored to King James’ ego. NIV and other transliterations are a little more accurate but the damage already has been done. You don’t believe certain concepts weren’t tailored to fit the Church’s doctrines, dogmas, and prejudices? A lot of the Christian Church’s doctrines considering things in the Old Testament has been denounced as heresy by Judaism. What about in Psalm 46 where the person commissioned by King James to write this translation, put his name in Psalm 46 on his 46th birthday? The King James version is not just a name, but it is a version written for King James specifically.
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kayms said
“For example, Your saying earlier that those seeking enlightenment are doing so to gain ultimate knowledge and power? WRONG! those who have such a motivation do NOT reach enlightenment because their motivation ruins the project.”
What is the purpose then to study Buddhism? If it is not to gain something. How can one desire to learn about buddhism without having desire?
by definition: Enlightenment..
3. Buddhism & Hinduism A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.
You are obtaining something, out of DESIRE, for the SELF.
This “religion” contradicts itself on the most basic and fundamental levels.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
E_E has nailed a couple good points that really apply to you Kay. First off, Buddhism doesn’t conflict with Christianity, just some fundie Christians THINK it does because of their interpretation of their own religion and their MISTAKEN interpretation of what Buddhism is.
Also about enlightenment, which you STILL don’t get the concept of Kay as shown in your last message. Like I said, you just might not be ready for Buddhist teachings. It only seems to contradict itself because of your viewpoint, not because of what it is.
Kay, you do have a more open mind and are more reasonable and rational than many Christians I have talked with. However, you are also still very quick to judge (what was that Jesus said?) and make faulty assumptions based on YOUR way of thinking. Don’t we all? Those dang humans!
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kayms said
Here is a list of some of the questions (points) I’ve asked but haven’t gotten answers to…
1) What you are saying is that only the people who follow Buddha’s teachings will understand Jesus’ teachings? Why did Jesus never mention Buddha?
You: “What I’m saying is that what Jesus taught was taught by Buddha six hundred years before, and by others before Buddha perhaps even back to caveman days.”
YOu: “Jesus had to communicate what he experienced to other people by using the terms available to Him from that time and place.
You: “Based on your comments, you also still misunderstand what I’m trying to say about Jesus and Buddha. What I’m saying is that Buddha taught us to go beyond thoughts and feelings to the door of our heart where the higher awareness that manifests the universe is knocking, and Jesus teaches us the same.”
You keep referring to what Jesus taught etc… I’ve been asking you to be specific about which passages back up what you are saying.
1) What you are saying is that only the people who follow Buddha’s teachings will understand Jesus’ teachings? Why did Jesus never mention Buddha?
which you will probably answer that His followers omitted these things in the Gospels, which would allude to their incincerity and intentional deception. Yet history tells us that they willingly were martyred for their own deceptions? Again, doesn’t make sense.
2) Where did Jesus say anything about being an expression of the cosmos? Jesus talked about God the Father and Heaven… why are you choosing to ignore this and propogate this other stuff instead??
His other teachings were on how to be good; to be more like God.
3) Are you saying that if someone taught earlier how to be good and treat others properly that they own that teaching? The concept of being good is ingrained in us. Budha or any one else didn’t “invent” that concept.
And.. If you are saying that Jesus taught that we are not separate or whatever …
” It’s about realizing that the idea of one being a separate thing living in a world made up of separate things is an illusion.”
4) I ask you where do you get that from?? What passages?
5) What do you mean by 600 years later?
And even if it was 600 years later they still have a better chance at getting it right than you do 2000 years later. Considering the translation issues and all.
Agree or disagree?
6) What exactly is the “enlightenment?” the understanding that everything is connected?
7) what is the advantage of believing that we are connected to everything?
8) Why is it “wrong” to believe that we are not connected?
If a star blows up, I’m not going to feel it. If my foot blows up, I will certainly feel it.
9) Is This FACT unimportant?
10) YOu keep referring to Jesus… I would like you to please define Jesus according to your beliefs… you haven’t been very clear about this.
11) why do you put your faith in one man’s teachings, Siddhartha Gautama, instead of in the unified witnessing of the many people who wrote the books of the Bible?
I’ll change “your faith in” to “why do you value this one man’s teachings above …”
(basically, what “credentials” does this person have?)
12) What is Gautama’s authority or source for his teachings?
And these that I’ve asked earlier…
13) What exactly is the foundation of Hinduism? You have yet to even describe your god to me. Or maybe you did… and it is you?
14)And I’m still waiting for you to answer the question of who your Supreme Being is; who do you worship as your Supreme Being?
You have still not answered this question except to say this…
“as for defining God, that is something I can’t do. Nobody can. The Hindus recognize this and say that all that can be positively said about God are negatives, it is not this, it is not that. God transcends all categories of thought.”
What?? you have repeatedly referred to “God” “Jesus” and “The Holy Spirit” but then you say that you can’t define God?
You have repeatedly referred to Jesus, particularly “what He taught”, but then claim that He might not have even existed??
“If Jesus actually was a historical personage, He might have been crucified.”
Now, if you are going to make any out there claims here about Jesus and God, I would like you to reference your sources please. And the credentials of these sources. Otherwise it will mean nothing. As you can see, when you make claims, if you dont’ referrence them with credible sources, then I can only assume they are coming from your reasoning… which is what I am questioning.. along with the false prophets you follow.. I would like their references also or theirs is meaningless as well.
TBG… I call B.S. on YOU! You have avoided so many of my questions and several that you did answer, I had to ask repeatedly before you would answer them.
If you truly are confident in your faith, you would NOT have avoided my questions. and the questions that you did answer were not direct or specific.. they were evasive which is another sign that your belief is faulty. You’ve avoided addressing God and Jesus as they relate to your beliefs yet you constantly refer to them and make it seem that you “believe as I do”. I’ve noticed deception and dishonesty and I call B.S. on you. And hypocrisy as well.
YOu said: “Perhaps those teachings seem abstract and ridiculous to you because you are not ready for them. Obviously your path for now at least is mainstream Christianity.”
I could say the same thing about you and Christianity… clearly you are not willing (ready) to acknowledge that you are a sinner and need Christ. Your ego and pride are going to be your downfall, as it is the cause of everyone’s downfall who rejects Christ.
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kay said
I have a comment in moderation.. and I don’t know why there is a smiley face instead of the number 8 in my comment??
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Re: the definition of Buddhism you just posted.
Buddhism isn’t a set of rules to follow handed down from above. You can’t find ANYWHERE what Buddhism teaches the way you can find out what Judaism, Christianity or Islam teach.
Buddhism is a dialogue, and what most people take to be the teachings of the Buddha are actually only the opening phases of the dialogue.
And you’re not “gaining” anything and especially not for the self, at least not for the egoself of the individual organism. What you REALIZE is that you had it all along, that the awareness at our ground of being is there at our ground of being and always has been there even when you didn’t think so (similar to the “Footprints in the sand” poem beloved of many Christians).
This realization is what Buddhists call nirvana, which is essentially the same as what the Hindus call moksha, or liberation, which I tried to explain to you in an earlier post to this thread. Moksha is when you see past the illusion of being a separate thing in a world made up of separate things and realize it completely, deeper than thoughts or feelings, way beyond the ability of words to describe.
Nirvana comes from the Sanskrit word that means to breathe out, as a sigh of relief. In colloquial English, it could be translated as “Whew!”
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
one comment in moderation that was posted before the one just above
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Ah I see a key problem here. Kay asks: “What is the purpose then to study Buddhism?”
There is none. It is not a means to an end. If it’s not your thing, if the path of Buddhism doesn’t appeal to you or catch your fancy, then don’t go that way. Nobody’s forcing you. It would be nice if you weren’t so judgmental and critical of it, calling it one of Satan’s religions, etc., but then, if you actually understood it enough to see how wrong that is, then maybe you’d be a Buddhist instead of a Christian (or maybe BOTH! It IS possible!)
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kay said
@ Hors..
Me: “I still stand by my comment that we can’t even begin to explain our existence.”
You: How surprising.
Your “theories” that supposedly prove my comment wrong….
2) most of them are still speculations
3) Theory of ropes, Supersymmetry, theory of the multiverse. Here are examples. Already given.
4) What if the universe is eternal? God is. So why not the universe?
5) None of these theories is perfect.
of these, only #3 & #4 are applicable to my point.
#3 Where did the “ropes” come from? It doesn’t answer the question…
#4 This is an illogical, unscientific theory. And that is what the point is.. that SCIENCE can’t even begin to explain our existence… AND.. you are using God to support your point, which is who you are denying in this debate.
you are supporting MY point here… that God exists, by proposing that everything is eternal… an UNSCIENTIC theory.
So, I’m still waiting for valid arguments (theories) that discount my statement that we can’t even begin to explain our existence.
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kay said
No it is NOT possible to be a buddhist and a Christian… I don’t know how you can justify saying that. Christianity is accepting Jesus as our Saviour.. redeeming us by taking away our sins by His sacrifice. THAT IS Christianity!! Not your interpretation with NOTHING to back it up. you have produced zero passages.
Do Buddhists or you believe that Jesus takes away your sins? I would REALLY like an answer to this too.. a direct answer…
And if there is no purpose to studying Buddhism then WHY are you studying it? Please make sense of this.
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kay-ms said
another comment in moderation…
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kay-ms said
TBG said: “And you’re not “gaining” anything and especially not for the self, at least not for the egoself of the individual organism. What you REALIZE is that you had it all along, ”
You are gaining realization! I have never seen anything comparable to this lever of word twisting that permeates buddhism. And that includes the liberals!!
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kay-ms said
Actually, mind twisting is a better description. There are no basis for these “religions” other than someone’s personal mind trip that other’s have joined in on. It’s ALL in the mind and the physical world is completely discounted as having no meaning. And above all, our Creator is discounted.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Oh my..there really is no word twisting than your own Kay. Believe what you will, since you will not believe the truth. It doesn’t matter if you believe in it or not. Or if you believe it is a selfish thing or not (of course we are talking to an organized religion actually out in the world trying to bring peace to it actively. And makes no actual profit in doing so.) You would rather accept an explanation that twists it to your own religious view than what it truly is.
Enlightenment can happen in any religion. It is when you come to the realization that everything is just a small part of a larger whole. Enlightenment happens when you see this, and you are no longer worried about the small things, like what imagery in a fictional story. Because these things do not truly matter. What does matter is that we (humans) are at war with each other for no real reason. We can cohabitate in a more peaceful manner. But that doesn’t matter because many people cannot see past their own nose. It is a waste of time actually explaining anything to you, since you act all sanctimonious like you are better and your religion is better than everyone and everything.
NEWS FLASH: NO ONE IS BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. I AM NOT BETTER THAN YOU AS A PERSON YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN ME. MY RELIGIOUS VIEWS ARE NOT BETTER THAN YOURS. AND YOURS ARE NO BETTER THAN MINE. THESE THINGS ARE REALLY UNIMPORTANT AS LIVING YOUR OWN LIFE IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WORK, SLEEP, EAT. THAT IS SUSTAINING NOT LIVING. LIVING IS WHERE YOU ACTUALLY GO OUT AND LEARN SOMETHING FOR YOURSELF. LIVING IS SEEING SOMETHING WITHOUT ACTUALLY TAKING ANOTHER’S WORD FOR IT THAT’S HOW IT IS. LEARNING IS APART OF LIVING AS WELL AS EXPERIENCING OR WITNESSING HARDSHIP AND CALAMITY. THE GOOD AND THE BAD SHOULD BE EMBRACED AS IT IS PART OF THE ULTIMATE WHOLE AS WHAT LIFE IS. LIFE IS GOOD EVEN THOUGH BAD THINGS HAPPEN. YOU LEARN AND BECOME STRONGER AND BETTER FROM THE HARDSHIPS YOU ENDURE. IT IS PART OF LIFE AND ACTUALLY LIVING A FULL ONE.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Well Kay, I have answered your questions. Too bad for you if you can’t understand my answers. You might not be capable of understanding my answers based on where you’re coming from, the path you’re on, your experiences and frames of reference. Maybe someday you will, then you’ll slap your hand to your forehead and say “duh!”
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
It amazes me Kay, how YOU can twist words around so much and then claim I’m the one doing that. You know, it is at least POSSIBLE that the problems you have understanding what I say are not from my end but from yours.
“…the failure to nail currant jelly to a wall is not due to the nail; it is due to the currant jelly.” –Theodore Roosevelt in a letter to William Thayer, July 2, 1915
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay the 8) turned into a smiley face because you need to add the 8.) other wise the code will pick it up as a smiley.
Also why is not believing we are not interconnected with everything else on this planet is dangerous? I can answer that using current events. We are running low on oil. I have stated before a fear that I heard in the middle east about the possibility of oil running out there in 10 years. That was in 2003. The middle eastern countries are actually giving technology and science more attention than oil because oil fields are running dry. Keep in mind this information is about 7 years old. Not only that but we are damaging our environment. Unless of course you want to think us cutting down trees in South America is not having a major negative impact on the ecosystem both in South America and the rest of the world. Each decision made is one that effects everyone on the planet. An influx of storm systems and colder cold fronts, much like what we saw this past month in the US. These are all ways of the Earth cooling itself down. Earthquakes have a purpose of releasing kinetic energy built up in the tectonic plates. That energy HAS to go somewhere and it goes up since it is the path of least resistance. It could go up and down put it is mostly felt up, we do not have instruments to measure how far down the tremors go.
Of course this can all be apart of the so-called “conspiracy” that scientists are trying to cause fear and panic and we can keep on draining this planet of its resources and pollute its air. Because the resources on this planet are limitless.
The above statement is not fact it is an ignorant statement. Because where can we go after we destroy this planet? No where. Who is trying to push the issue about the global warming being false despite it is FACT? People whose pockets and influence would be hurt the most if we were no longer dependent on oil. I mean Alaska would lose its main import/export if we found an alternative cleaner burning fuel. Oil companies would lose money if we were not dependent on petrol based fuel sources. Think about that before siding with people that would rather get richer than improve YOUR quality of life.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I find it ironic that the political party that claims to represent the values of Christ actually spends most of its time protecting rich people’s interests.
It also doesn’t make sense to me that some of those rich people seem willing to poison the planet just to make a few bucks. How can they be so selfish and shortsighted? Ignorance may be part of it, but I think a bigger part is unbridled greed and stupidity.
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kay-ms said
TBG said: “..You know, it is at least POSSIBLE that the problems you have understanding what I say are not from my end but from yours.”
And you know it is POSSIBLE that those beliefs you keep refering to, Buddhism etc, could be a bunch of b.s. I think it is. But again, if you just go back and read some of the stuff you’ve “explained” to me about buddhism, I don’t know how you can think I am the one with the problem. Are you kidding me?? It honestly doesn’t make sense unless maybe you’re on drugs.
I’ve read a little on buddhism and I admit that there are some parts that are enticing… which is a necessary component if followers are desired. The parts about suffering in our lives. And the goal to achieve peace.. which the buddhist sect I was reading about meant ceasing to exist.. ultimate peace I guess.
But God has a better plan for us where we achieve peace and get to live with Him for eternity.
I had asked this quite awhile back and don’t think I got an answer to this either…
Who is controling or deciding this process where we are born over and over until we reach “Nirvana”? Who decided that this is how it would be?
And were you going to address comments 107 & 113?
Once again you are reminding me of the Mormons… William said if I wanted to know about Mormonism to ask a mormon… I did, I asked him and never did get my questions answered. You seemed all to willing to “enlighten” us about your beliefs but now you don’t seem to want to answer my questions either.
Does this similarity surprise me? NOT ONE BIT.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Went back to post 107.
1) I never said only those who follow Buddha’s teachings can understand Jesus’s teachings. What I said is that Jesus teaches us the same teachings as Buddha. Why didn’t Jesus mention Buddha? Why should He?
2) I never said Jesus said anything about being an expression of the cosmos. I did say that Jesus was expressing his experience of divine Sonship in terms of the language and culture He was in.
3) I never said anything about treating others nice or being good. I was talking about God realization. Buddha teaches this. Jesus does too.
4) That is not spelled out in so many words in the Bible.
5) Jesus lived 600 years after Buddha lived. As for getting it “right”, I have as much perspective on being human as anyone who has ever lived. I don’t claim more, but I do claim as much.
6) Enlightenment can’t be communicated, only experienced. It is realizing the awareness at one’s ground of being. Part of that realization is the not being separate bit, but there’s more, much more. This isn’t something one “knows” intellectually. It is much deeper than thoughts or feelings. It is ineffable, that is, something that can’t be talked about not because of any taboo but simple because words aren’t up to the task.
7) This goes beyond advantage or disadvantage. It is an awareness of how things are, really. You don’t have to have that awareness to play in the field of space and time. Having greater awareness could be considered “advantageous” or “disadvantageous” depending on one’s circumstances and goals.
8) Because we are connected to everything. This is an obvious fact that can be easily demonstrated.
9) What fact? That your skin-encapsulated body won’t feel a star blowing up but would feel one of your feet blowing up? No, it’s not unimportant, but it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
10) If Jesus was a historical personage as described in the Bible, I believe he was a man, a human, who experienced what some have called cosmic consciousness, a.k.a. Christ consciousness, a.k.a. Buddha consciousness.
11) I value the teachings of Buddha and Jesus as helping ordinary humans realize their connection to the God-consciousness within each of us.
12) Buddha experienced this directly, and gives hints for us to follow our own path to realize it ourselves instead of taking anyone else’s word for it and getting it secondhand.
13) I’ve explained the foundations of Hindism more than once. Briefly, it is that everything and everyone are manifestations of God acting all the parts for fun. Refer to that earlier post about the diaphragm of a radio’s speaker.
14) My supreme being is the God of the Bible, who is also the God of the Hindus, and the ultimate consciousness of the Buddhists, and each of us is a manifestation of that divine consciousness. As for defining God, that is just silly. Does the word ineffable mean anything to you?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
As for post 113: No, Buddhists in general do not believe that Jesus took away our sins, mainly because the concept of sin is a Judeo-Christian construct that may not be the way things really are UNLESS you believe it. OTOH, those Buddhists who are also Christians or those Christians who are also Buddhists would say yes, Jesus died to take away our sins.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
as for Buddhism being a bunch of b.s., maybe it is. It makes more sense to me than mainstream Christianity, and as far as being in accord with other sources of information such as science it is much more in accord with that than fundie Christianity is. Besides, as I keep trying to tell you, my personal experience of this, the biggest reasons I have for following this path instead of mainstream Christianity, can NOT be communicated. I know because I’m me and I’ve experienced this personally. THAT is how I know, but there’s no way I can “prove” it to you or anyone else, and actually, that is unnecessary.
Buddhism is not about converting people the way Christians are. It almost seems like Christians are so insecure about what they believe that they have to try to get as many people as possible to agree with their INTERPRETATION of what it all means in order for them to believe it better themselves. That is real bullshit.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
two comments posted immediately, the third did not. There is a comment in moderation.
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kay-ms said
I’m going to take these one at a time.
1) So Jesus, even though He is the Son of God, was not able to adequately pass along his message because of the limits of spoken language.. right? But if Buddhists heard Jesus’ message they WOULD understand it.. right? So why wouldn’t Jesus direct His followers to Buddha’s teachings? That is how I arrived at that question.
And if Jesus is the Son of God, why wouldn’t He have forseen this “problem”? That resulted in people dying for a misunderstood message? And people for thousands of years back and into the future who will misunderstand His message? Wouldn’t you think He would direct us to buddha’s teachings so we would get His message? what was the point if no one is going to get His message? And particularly to DIE for this message… that still makes no sense to me… God wouldn’t send His Son to die to give us a message. It isn’t necessary. On the other hand it was necessary in the Christian doctrine in order for us to be saved.
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kay-ms said
I have a comment in moderation.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I think Jesus died because the culture he was in would not accept the realization of divine Sonship. It just wouldn’t do. It upset the status quo too much. And even for those who DID accept it, they said only Jesus, only this one, realized it, nobody else. In other words they pur him on a pedestal and worshipped the messenger instead of getting the message. That is my sincere belief about this matter. Like I said, and I’m not the first one to say this, if Jesus had been born in India He would NOT have been crucified; he would have been congratulated on his insight instead.
As for my motivations in spreading what you call anti-Christian propaganda on the internet, I see it as a corrective to the lies and bullshit spread by Christians about the subject of evolution for one thing. As one who loves truth, it really irks me that some misguided fools are working night and day to dumb down American children in public schools. To hear them say such outright falsehoods as there are no transitional fossils, or that evolution doesn’t happen, or that we are NOT related to chimpanzees when the evidence is SO massively overwhelming to show that we ARE, well, that just pisses me off.
Also, the religious right tries to rewrite the history books and make America into something the OPPOSITE of what the founding fathers intended. This is supposed to be a country where we have freedom of religion, not a theocracy.
So as a Buddhist, as one who follows the “middle way,” I naturally do my part to spread what I see as truth to counter what I see as lies being spread by Christians. Even if they mean well, they are wrong and are causing harm to our country and to the planet by the lies they spread.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Technically I am not a Hindu, nor a Buddhist. I use those terms because they are closest to my personal beliefs. One can’t really be a Hindu unless one was born in and lives in India. It is a culture as much as or more than a religion.
Advaita Vedanta Hinduism or Mahayana Buddhism are closest to my beliefs. They have much in common. I like Zen buddhism the best except for the sitting part. I don’t go with that and don’t see it as necessary, which means that according to zen buddhists I’m not one of them. Oh well.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
there’s a comment in moderation. I wrote two. The second one posted; the first didn’t yet. This is the third comment of this session and is only necessary to let the mods know that the first one didn’t post.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Oh yes, almost forgot, it also really makes me mad that the religious right, claiming to represent the values of Christ, has aligned itself with the Republican Party which is after all the political party that favors the rich instead of helping the poor. I don’t like liars or hypocrites. I also love the planet, and big businesses that rape and poison it for shortsighted greed are protected by the Republicans because they have money.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Why are we debating about two different theologies? I mean fundie Christianity really is not compatible with anything even though they try to make sense of everything by comparing their beliefs to others. Which would be fine IF they compared actual theology and didn’t try to twist the theology to fit how it is wrong. By often giving half truths or out right lies about that religion. So the what is a better theology really is a debate that neither side really can win because religious beliefs are all based on opinion, and how a topic resonates with a person. That feeling, that stirring is what I am referring to. So that person is going to have tinted glasses when it comes to theology. This is what is called a No-Win topic. This topic can go on and on and on for years…I would hate to point out people have stopped following this site because they really do not want to see this kind of debate. It is the point Project Sanctuary was created so full theological debates as they are all No-Win topics, can be discussed there. I am seriously considering diverting any and all religious debate topics not dealing with current events there. We got way off topic on this one. But Tiger Woods is old news, there is new news in the religious conservative vs. religious liberal war…Actually one of these topics have been posted…What I am saying this is no longer about Tiger Woods, or really current events. This is a theological debate. Really seriously this blog is regestered as a POLITICAL blog. Don’t say well religion influences politics. It is true, but this is not actual politics. This is not even a debate its a fight over theology. You two have fun with that really. Don’t stop I don’t care, but I am informing you we will be integrating to facebook with our RSS feeds streaming to facebook. And this blog is registered as POLITICAL AND CURRENT EVENTS. This is both with google analytics (ttw set it up and paid for it.) and soon to be with facebook. We are in danger of losing our google analytics spot if we do not change the format to either fit what we say this blog is about or change it.. I really want to keep this blog the way it was intended. I mean political religious issues like Evolution, stem cell research, nanotechnology as it pertains to medicine, Global Warming, and many other things are okay to put in some theology. I am going to be integrating that site as well into facebook. I promise our readers base is going to increase soon. But we have to start staying to our current format.
And I do this for good reason that I cannot yet talk about… But trust me this is what I am told is to be done, I am just a drone. Albeit a drone that can do a lot of things, but still it is very important this actually happens and tothewire.wordpress.com keeps things a little more political and a little less religious. In fact I am adding both of you as authors to the project sanctuary site right now. So go write an article, whether it be religious on the other site or political on this site…I really cannot be passive on this issue anymore, money was spent to actually allow this site to pop up on the top ten when you search a lot of the tags in our posts. I will say I would rather not lose our google analytics because money was spent for it and it was not mine… I have to think about ways to keep this blog going. You don’t have to actually migrate yet..but know in the near future you will have to.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Oh and I realize that my opinion of who Jesus was and why he died is different than the Christian viewpoint. That is why I am NOT a Christian, unless you count the mystical traditions within Christianity that have always existed but aren’t talked about much. A Christian mystic and a Buddhist mystic have much in common, much more so than the average followers of those faiths.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
E_E says “I mean fundie Christianity really is not compatible with anything even though they try to make sense of everything by comparing their beliefs to others. Which would be fine IF they compared actual theology and didn’t try to twist the theology to fit how it is wrong. By often giving half truths or out right lies about that religion. So the what is a better theology really is a debate that neither side really can win because religious beliefs are all based on opinion, and how a topic resonates with a person.”
That is similar to what I was saying earlier in this thread, that there can be no impartial judge as to which religion is the “truth” or better than other religions because anyone making that judgment has been, whether they realize it or not, conditioned by the values of the society they live in and are limited even in considering other viewpoints sometimes (again usually unconsciously) by the very structure of the language they think in.
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kay-ms said
as to comment 135, I disagree. People can be impartial, it’s not impossible, people do it all the time. And blaming the language as being limited in explaining the message is a cop out I believe. Sure there may be SOME instances where that might be true but 99% of the time i.e. MOST OF THE TIME… language (any language) serves more than adequately to get the point across. It’s absurd and narrow minded to dismiss the written word (or an entire message / Book) just because of a few instances where it might not, or seem to not, express something properly. I sincerely believe it is just yet another excuse.
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kay-ms said
TBG, in responding to my point (#1) you have covered a whole lot of other stuff… I have responses to all of them but I am going to resist and stay focused on #1 right now…
In your 6 responses following my questions / points, there were no responses to those questions / point. Not one.
So, I’m just going to continue to wait for your response to my questions before I address anything else.
And I have to say that this is looking pretty hypocritical to me… you have accused Synapse of intentional deceptiveness several times. And it is also looking like your claims of sincerety and desire for the truth are questionable also. If this were true you would want to address those questions even though you may not have the answers.. I do not see an honest approach from you, you have indicated otherwise over and over.
You have said over and over that you hate lies and desire the truth. Just like the Mormons will say over and over that they believe that Jesus saves them completely. But then they acknowledge that their own works are required… saying something and not backing it up is a lie and completely worthless.
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kay-ms said
And also in response to comment 135…
In reference to which religion is true… proving which religion is true is clearly not going to happen but debating the beliefs and doctrines etc will help determine which is most likely to be true. In other words… which makes the most sense? Particularly when veiwed in the “big picture” of things.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
There was a list of fourteen questions from post 107 and one from post 113. I answered EVERY one! How can you say I am ignoring or not answering your questions.
Also, you are wrong about how limiting language can be. The limitations of language to truly communicate what we mean is THE main problem with human communication and is one of the main causes of misunderstandings among people. And the issue of being conditioned by your culture where a particular religion makes more “sense” to you is also something that is quite real but that most people are completely oblivious to.
About what E_E said about fundies arguing theology, he made a very good point that I totally agree with and which pisses me off. IF Buddhism were the way the fundies present it, of course it’s ridiculous. IF evolution were the way the fundies present it, of course it’s wrong. But they present distortions of the truth and outright LIES, whether from ignorance, stupidity, or wickedness I do not know. I tend to think it is probably from a combination of ignorance and stupidity more than anything. Ignorance because they have never actually learned what those other theologies teach, and possibly stupidity because abstract teachings are beyond the ability of their fundie minds to handle.
Nothing wrong with that. People have different talents and abilities, strengths and weaknesses. I’ll be damned if I’m going to let a bunch of village idiots ruin my society though. They can believe whatever they want until they try to legislate ignorance and hurt people or harm the planet, then I speak out.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Here is the thing..its not language that is the main problem but cultural differences as well as an actual understanding of culture that is not the same as it was 2000 + years ago. Things change. I mean yes when you translate from a language to English about 95% of the time a direct word for word translation will not make a lot of sense in English. In many languages concept and perception is used to try to give what the translator thinks something is saying. So in translations of many different written texts things could be clouded by the translators opinion or prejudices. That’s life, the whole point I am making is..Religious debates never end because no one really can win. Sure you can talk theology, but a persons own prejudices and opinions cloud the understanding of a lot of theology…So really a theological debate is pointless and a waste of time. Because you are going against another persons opinion. You can take two Conservatives that have similar opinions but there will be one that is completely different than the other one.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but no one is entitled to tell others how they should believe. I would like to try to encourage learning and understanding. I don’t expect the outlook would change in the respect of someone changing a religion. That really is not the goal, the goal is so everyone knows what another person believes and why. The difference between how Wicca is practiced in actuality and how Organized Christianity teaches it is practiced are totally different and completely wrong. It isn’t for me, but at least I know why it isn’t for me as opposed to making a decision based on propaganda. I mean there is more to most world religions than just the fundamental (core) beliefs. This includes Christianity. The core is just to build a foundation, what you find out while practicing your religion is the spiritual house in which you live. If you believe in the very core teachings then truly learning another religions theology, shouldn’t convince you to change.
There is much to this topic that can be spoken of, but this is not the correct venue for such a discussion.
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Anonymous said
“How can you say I am ignoring or not answering your questions.”
I’m refering to comment 127. My response to your previous answers of which the first one ended with a question to me.
My comment 127 was partly to answer your question and explain my question and why I asked it..
so I could actually get an answer.. which I’ve STILL not gotten.
I can say with confidence that you are ingorning my questions because of the many times I’ve had to ask them in order to get a direct answer.. the questions / points of comment 127 have been presented to you a few times now… and again…. still no answer.
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kay-ms said
I am anonymous…
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Matt Shaver said
Nice Story
There’s more information about Tiger Woods avalible on my site
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
In post 127 Kay asks many questions, not just one. She says:
I’m going to take these one at a time.
1) So Jesus, even though He is the Son of God, was not able to adequately pass along his message because of the limits of spoken language.. right? Spiritual teachings cannot be truly communicated using spoken or written language, correct.
But if Buddhists heard Jesus’ message they WOULD understand it.. right? Maybe, it depends on their level of understanding. Those whose minds are attuned wouldn’t even need to hear any words. Just being around Jesus would open their minds and hearts. Ramana Maharshi’s strongest teachings were in silence. Buddha once lifted up a flower as a whole sermon; only one member of the audience understood.
So why wouldn’t Jesus direct His followers to Buddha’s teachings? That is how I arrived at that question. I don’t know. Maybe because He was trying to express it in terms of the Jewish culture.
And if Jesus is the Son of God, why wouldn’t He have forseen this “problem”? Maybe He did. I don’t know.
That resulted in people dying for a misunderstood message? People die for understood messages too.
And people for thousands of years back and into the future who will misunderstand His message? except for those whose minds are attuned to it.
Wouldn’t you think He would direct us to buddha’s teachings so we would get His message? Not necessarily. He is giving the same teaching as Buddha, but Buddha wasn’t the first or only one to do so either, just a fairly recent and very influential one.
what was the point if no one is going to get His message? Who says nobody got it?
And particularly to DIE for this message… that still makes no sense to me… God wouldn’t send His Son to die to give us a message. It isn’t necessary. It was the people who weren’t ready for that message that killed Jesus and others not ready for it who misconstrued His purpose, in my opinion.
On the other hand it was necessary in the Christian doctrine in order for us to be saved. Yes, Christians believe that. I do too, but obviously not the same way you do.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I have a comment in moderation. and hey, my turn to ask YOU a question Kay. Why does the Republican Party, which claims to uphold the teachings and values of Christ, spend most of its time protecting the interests of rich people? Why is it the party of unbridled shortsighted greed that doesn’t care if it rapes and poisons the planet as long as the fat cats can make a few extra bucks?
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john shaver said
great site!
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I want to amend an answer, add to it really rather than change it. Jesus just by being there without even saying a word could be teaching, and even for those who aren’t in His immediate presence His spirit can still touch and instruct those willing to listen and follow.
It is even possible that God touches the mind of each person reading or hearing the words of Jesus secondhand in such a way that the meaning that God intends THAT person to receive is the one they get.
In general though, words by themselves without such supernatural intervention fail miserably at communicating spiritual teachings, and it is impossible to truly communicate any experience at all, much less spiritual ones, using language.
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Princessxxx said
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horsservice said
@Kay
“of these, only #3 & #4 are applicable to my point.”
The points 1) and 2) are here to explain you that we are only beginning with the subject.
“#3 Where did the “ropes” come from? It doesn’t answer the question…”
They have always been here. Deriving from dimensions. It is possible with some mathematics to argue that nothingness couldn’t exist. Don’t ask me why.
“#4 This is an illogical, unscientific theory. And that is what the point is.. that SCIENCE can’t even begin to explain our existence… AND.. you are using God to support your point, which is who you are denying in this debate.”
1) Science is B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G. You ask for answers that science doesn’t have. Scientists just know that one day we will probably have them. Just not yet.
2) I just put no “I don’t know where does it come from” level more than necessary.
We ask: “Where does the universe come from?”
I say: “I don’t know.”
You say:”God created it.”
I ask:”Where does God come from?”
You say:”I don’t know”.
I don’t need to have a God to understand that I don’t know.
“you are supporting MY point here… that God exists, by proposing that everything is eternal… an UNSCIENTIC theory.”
Why “the universe is eternal” would be unscientific? It was widely accepted by the scientific community until the Big Bang theory, and noone needed a God either.
“So, I’m still waiting for valid arguments (theories) that discount my statement that we can’t even begin to explain our existence.”
The important point is “begin”. We are beginning to explain our existence. This doesn’t mean we can explain it, but we have started. The whole science is there to prove that we are beginning to explain our existence: even if there was only ONE theory, we would be beginning.
/
Now, and can I make myself clear? I DON’T WANT TO DEBATE ABOUT THAT.
I would like to debate on the other questions I’ve pointed out. Thank you (I’ve maybe missed your answers, but I can’t see them.)
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kay-ms said
Of course you don’t want to debate that… because it argues in FAVOR of a Supreme Being which you want to deny.
I made a statement… “Science doesn’t even begin to explain how our existence came to be”. You disagreed with me. I asked you to prove my statement wrong. And the only answer you could give me is eternal existence. That goes AGAINST science because science is based on cause and effect. To say that someday science will explain it is NO DIFFERENT than making the claim that God did it. Neither one has any scientific basis.
Of these two, it is God that makes the most sense. The planning it too obvious. Yes, I know you’ll argue that also but again of the two choices that is the most likely (reasonable) choice.
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kay-ms said
So, apparently, you are willing to accept that God sent His Son to give us a message at a time when no one would understand it unless they had special teachings from other cultures in other parts of the world? It doesn’t make sense. Which means that you are probably wrong.
And you are also willing to accept that God would let His Son die for this message of “enlightenment” and that we are all gods? There is no necessity for Him to suffer and die for this message. If you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, as you’ve stated, shouldn’t He have been able to save Himself? No need to answer that… it’s a question to show that again, your view doesn’t make sense, which means that you are probably wrong.
“people die for understood messages too”
That didn’t answer the question / point. The point is that because God didn’t send meet the circumstances required for people to get this message, many People ended up dying for a false message, and billions followed and still follow this “false” message. It doesn’t make sense, which means that you are most likely wrong.
These are just some of the things of your faith that don’t make sense. Do they make sense to you? Honestly?
Me: what was the point if no one is going to get His message?
you: Who says nobody got it?
This is a ridiculous answer… you know my point… an overwhelming majority in Jesus’ time did not get His message according to you. What was the purpose for this if “no one” is going to get the message??
It’s not necessary to answer each of these questions individualy if you could just give me an honest direct answer to my point, that is all I am looking for and still haven’t gotten. That you say “I don’t know” without any follow up.. leaves me to believe that you don’t care if these things make sense or not… which tells me you are not truly looking for the truth.. you say that you care about the truth and hate for lies to be spread, well what you are spreading is very questionable as I’ve shown here..it doesn’t make sense. It is clear that you care more about selling a “faith” that you can pridefully call your own than finding the truth.
YOu dont’ know for sure that you are right… You could be wrong! You’ve said so yourself!! That you’ve given me “I don’t know” answers shows that you can’t be 100% sure. So why are you not concerned that you could possibly be fighting AGAINST God… AGAINST what Jesus did for us on the cross? He died out of love for us… this could be the truth! This is what the Bible says… the actual messages in black and white could be true! Really! The Christian theology is based on the written word of many witnesses. What is Buddha’s theology based on?? Just his own thoughts… that’s it.
Like I said, Buddhism or any other “religion” just does not have the credentials like Christianity does.
And the written word deserves so much more credit than you want to give it, which seems to be very little..
Let me ask you… which is more likely to be MISUNDERSTOOD… a man saying nothing while holding a flower…Or the written word?
Your philosophy is extremely faulty and is obvious to me that it is just another excuse to reject the Bible.
You are leading people to destruction that He died to save by trying to cancel out what He did. This IS a very arguable possibility!!.. don’t you care?
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kay-ms said
comment 151 is to TBG.
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horsservice said
@Kay
“Of course you don’t want to debate that… because it argues in FAVOR of a Supreme Being which you want to deny.”
1) It doesn’t argue in favor of a supreme being. Explanations afterwards.
2) I mad myself clear that even if I could debate about it, I would much rather discuss about “God can’t be only the God of the Bible”. I could use your argument: you purposefully doesn’t answer my question because it argues against the exclusiveness of the God of the Bible. Did you notice how I didn’t use this argument?
“And the only answer you could give me is eternal existence.”
1) I proved you that we BEGAN to explain our existence. Not that we had the answer.
2) No, it’s a possibility. My other answer, much more accurate is “I don’t know”.
“That goes AGAINST science because science is based on cause and effect.”
No, that doesn’t goes against science: an infinite succession of cause and effect isn’t unscientific. It’s not because you’re unfamiliar with infinites that the universe is. For example, the universe is infinite, yet the quantity of matter it contains is finite, and the universe is expanding. This is not uncompatible.
“To say that someday science will explain it is NO DIFFERENT than making the claim that God did it.”
Wrong. You give an assertion. I give a possibility. Which is, basically, the n°1 difference between religion and science. And I have a basis to that: at the moment, the huge majority of the scientific problems asked 50 years ago have been solved. New has arosen, but based on previous successes I find highly probable that we could solve this problems in the next 50 years. And so on.
“Neither one has any scientific basis.”
Thanks to finally recognize that God creating the universe has no scientific basis.
Which doesn’t mean you can’t believe in it: until we find a suitable solution, it is perfectly acceptable to believe God created the universe.
“Of these two, it is God that makes the most sense.”
No, only to a part of the population does it make the most sense.
“The planning it too obvious.”
Well, not for everyone. I can show you examples of auto-organisation in matter that requires no brain at all, and examples of mathematical functions looking like they were sentient, whereas they’re just following basic rules.
“Yes, I know you’ll argue that also but again of the two choices that is the most likely (reasonable) choice.”
This isn’t the oppinion of the scientific community. Believe as you want.
So, where does God come from?
/
How many times do I have to prove you I am not fleeing the debate? I just prefer the one about “God isn’t exclusively the God of the Bible”. How hard is it to understand that?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay says: “So, apparently, you are willing to accept that God sent His Son to give us a message at a time when no one would understand it unless they had special teachings from other cultures in other parts of the world?”
Again you misunderstand me. That is NOT what I said. You do that a LOT, Kay. I say something, then you say something back to me commenting on what I said that shows you completely misunderstand what I said.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay says, “It’s not necessary to answer each of these questions individualy if you could just give me an honest direct answer to my point, that is all I am looking for and still haven’t gotten. That you say “I don’t know” without any follow up.. leaves me to believe that you don’t care if these things make sense or not… which tells me you are not truly looking for the truth.. ”
My telling you “I don’t know” is honesty, Kay. I’m not trying to trick you or anyone else. I am honestly telling you that Buddhism does make sense to me, even if it seems complete nonsense to you. Your path for now seems to be a bhakti yoga with Jesus Christ as the object of devotion. Fine, for you. It doesn’t work for me.
I prayed a LOT all my life. I even wrote a song about it that is on my web site. Part of the lyrics go “Seems I never get an answer, nothing I can recognize, and I wonder who I’m seeing when I look into my eyes.”
Another song I wrote about an encounter with a young woman called “Eyes of Blue” has the line “like crystal skies, I could see the universe in her eyes looking at me.”
In purely physical terms, each of us can be thought of as a function of what the entire cosmos is doing at a point called here and now, “I.” In other words, each of us can be thought of as the whole universe looking at itself through our eyes.
That makes sense to me, getting in touch with that ground of being, that deepest highest awareness within each of us, that makes sense to me. Much more sense than watching a guy with bad hair on TV preach about a book that describes the religion of people from iron age Palestine. To me, Christianity is but ONE path to the truth, and it is a valid path for many, but in my opinion it is NOT the only path.
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kay-ms said
I’ve asked you if your beliefs concering Jesus (that I’ve addressed above) make sense.
could I get an HONEST answer to that?
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kay-ms said
I don’t deny that there might be some spiritual techniques that do “enlighten” us and help us to be closer to God.
My problem is where it discounts Jesus. Why have you chosen to reject what Jesus has done for us and spread this belief without any certainty of it’s truth?
That is the answer I’m looking for that you dont’ want to address.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Apparently the only answers you would consider as answering your question or point would be ones where I say “Oh I realize I’m completely wrong. You have it right. It’s right there in black and white on the page right here (as you point to a Bible.”
I can’t do that. I know too much. The Bible has way too many internal and external inconsistencies for me to take it as the inerrant word of God, and I’m sure not gonna take YOUR word for what it means when you so consistently misconstrue, twist and distort what I say to you.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
As I’ve said many times, my beliefs DO make sense to me even if I can’t adequately communicate to you WHY they make sense to me. You don’t HAVE to follow my path. In fact, you’d almost certainly get lost if you did. Your path is for you and not necessarily for anyone else.
That is a fundamental difference between Hinduism and Christianity, and I think Hinduism is more accurate here. People ARE at different levels of spiritual awareness. They DO understand things in different ways than others do. That’s basic human nature, a fact of the way we are, and that is something that Hinduism acknowledges. There are several different ways to find the truth, appropriate for different styles of learning.
Bhakti yoga is one that works for many people. That is the path you are on.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I have more than sufficient reason to believe that my understanding of the message and purpose of Jesus is at least as adequate and accurate as your understanding.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and why do you keep implying that I am NOT giving you honest answers? WTF is your problem Kay?
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dorian said
TBG, my guess is it’s because your answers are not the answers she’s looking for. you don’t have the same truths, remember? the honesty part, i don’t know. all liberals are liars?? sumpin’ like that.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and I’m not even a liberal according to a detailed test I took last year. I am a moderate centrist, just left of center.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Let me repeat the question I asked Kay that SHE is apparently ignoring: Why does the Republican Party, which claims to uphold the teachings and values of Christ, spend most of its time protecting the interests of rich people? Why is it the party of unbridled shortsighted greed that doesn’t care if it rapes and poisons the planet as long as the fat cats can make a few extra bucks?
Now this might seem like a straw man argument to some the way it is worded, but I have seen this myself the past thirty years since I’ve been a voting adult. This IS the way the Republicans are. I want to know how they can justify it while claiming to be the party that is closest to the teachings of Christ?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Actually Kay, don’t even bother answering my question about the Republican Party. I really don’t think you could answer it to my satisfaction anyway. Let that question stand as one of the main reasons I don’t usually vote Republican (although I do agree with their Party line on some issues and do vote for some Republican candidates on an individual basis depending on their voting record).
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kay-ms said
TBG, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over word for word (like YOU are reading from a script, didn’t you accuse Synapse of that also?) without directly answering my questions with DIRECT answers. It’s amazing how you can say so much and still not answer my questions.
I asked:
“I’ve asked you if your beliefs concerning Jesus (that I’ve addressed above) make sense.
could I get an HONEST answer to that?”
Several comments down I guess you answered: “I have more than sufficient reason to believe that my understanding of the message and purpose of Jesus is at least as adequate and accurate as your understanding.”
Then why can’t you give me a direct answer to my question? It’s a simple yes or no question, but you know that if you say yes, I’m going to ask you to explain how it could make sense to you. so instead you just avoid giving a direct answer and instead give an answer without examples or specifices so I can’t challenge it.
You say that you have “sufficient reason” good for you! Do you think you could explain specificially what gives you that “sufficient reason”? You know that is what I’ve been asking for.. You are playing games..you are clearly not interested in an honest debate…
Clearly you do NOT think that it makes sense for God to send His Son to give us a message that no one would understand, and also let Him die for this message. Because anyone with any intelligence knows that it doesn’t make sense… yet you claim those are your beliefs.
I don’t need to press this further… I’ve proven to myself that you don’t have a reasonable basis for your beliefs concerning Jesus. And also why you have chosen to reject what He has done for you…you have no reasonable basis for that either. Well, you reject Jesus I guess because some people believe Genesis to be a literal account and you reject Jesus because you believe that the written word (the Bible) is inadequate in passing along messages from God. And I guess because of inconsistancies in the Gospels like Friday to Sunday not being 3 days… which I’ve explained that it is. But I can’t explain any thing else to you because you’ve avoided giving me any other specific examples.
But ultimately (and you’ve especially avoided this point) the reason you deny what Jesus did for you is because you don’t believe you need to be forgiven for your sins… since you’ve decided to believe that sin doesn’t exist. All of the other “reasons” like the “bad” Creationism “liars” and the inadequacy of words and Fri to Sunday not being 3 days are just excuses because ultimately you do not want to have to answer to God. For your own good you need to realize that not wanting to be accountable to God will not make you un-accountable to God.. you will still have to answer to Him. You are only lying to yourself.
If you want to give me some honest reasons ( SPECIFIC reasons), on why you’ve chosen to not believe that Jesus died to redeem you, I’ll continue this debate but until then I just don’t want to spend all this time proving to anyone out there who may be reading how deceptive and dishonest you are.. I don’t care about proving that except in how it relates to what you are spreading on the internet based on absolutely nothing that you can back up with scriptures or examples (at least nothing that you’ve shown me so far).
As it stands right now, it seems that you don’t care if you might be wrong ( I don’t know for sure though, since you haven’t addressed that point either)… and will continue to spread your beliefs on the internet because it serves your ego. It serves the self that you keep preaching is wrong and against your beliefs.
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kay-ms said
I have a comment in moderation..
TBG, I can’t answer for all of the republican party but I don’t have any desire to protect the pockets of the rich. Sure there are those hypocrites in the party, just as there are hypocrites in all of the parties but most do not feel that way, the way you’ve described.
What the real problem is that the Democracts and liberals are USING global warming to push their agenda of a more socialistic government. Which leaves the republicans to either be called greedy or give in and let the country be socialized. That’s the problem.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay, it is very difficult for me to believe your claim that most in the Republican Party do not support protecting the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor and especially at the expense of the environment, because the track record of Republican politicians on these issues clearly show otherwise. The proof is in the pudding.
Part of the problem may be the anti-science bias that goes with the fundie Christian mentality. Part of it may even come from that wacky end times theology. I mean, if the world is going to end in our lifetime when Jesus comes back, why bother conserving resources, right?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Also, even though some scientists have been concerned about global warming for many decades, it has only become a political issue in the past decade or so. Republicans have been screwing the poor and raping the environment for at least as long as I’ve been an adult voter, since the late 1970s. The Presidency of Ronald Reagan was a disaster for our nation’s natural resources.
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kay-ms said
Well, no one has approved my comment yet that I wrote last night to close out our debate (unless you can give me direct reasons for your beliefs; then I would really like to continue).
“Kay, it is very difficult for me to believe your claim that most in the Republican Party do not support protecting the pockets of the rich at the expense of the poor and especially at the expense of the environment, because the track record of Republican politicians on these issues clearly show otherwise. The proof is in the pudding.”
Key word there is “politicians”. There are many in the republican party for monetary reasons.. I think OTA is a good example. But many are there for moral reasons. I personally find it disgusting when the lining of pockets is given first priority, especially when it comes to war. It makes me want to throw up.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Well those Republican politicians that have a track record of screwing the poor and raping the environment wouldn’t be able to do so unless they were supported by a majority of the people they represent, so it does come back to the rank and file Republican Party members. As for moral reasons, that goes back again to the key point. How can the party that claims to represent Christ more than the Democrats be so much a puppet of the rich?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I don’t want the rich people to pay MORE than their fair share. However, because they are rich they can afford the lawyers and the lobbyists where it usually ends up that they don’t even pay their fair share.
Besides, once you’re a billionaire or even a millionaire, how much richer do you need to be? Seriously? Unless you’re on a power trip hopefully to try to direct the money to make the world a better place for everyone, then that would be cool. Some rich people DO spread the wealth around to help others. However, if that wealth is obtained by screwing the poor or raping the environment and poisoning the planet, that is NOT cool.
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kay-ms said
Because they’re hypocrites? I’d still rather be associated with the republicans than the democrats. Some of those things that you see as in the interest of the rich are debatable… like raising taxes on the people who create the jobs… doing so will just force jobs overseas and cause the small business owners to hire fewer people. It’s just common sense.
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kay-ms said
I have ANOTHER comment in moderation… and it isn’t even that long… this is ridiculous.. I used to be able to approve comments but I was demoted for some reason that I don’t even know except that my fellow moderators didn’t like what I was saying. Since they are all liberals.. go figure.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
If they want to become trillionaires, more power to them. Just don’t spend money to bribe politicians to write laws so you can rape and poison the environment messing up the planet for future generations. Don’t spend money to pay lawyers to twist words so you don’t pay what other people HAVE to pay to support society because they don’t have the lawyers and DO have the morals (well some do, even liberals and Democrats. Surprise!).
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dorian said
hey everyone, FYI, my computer time these days for blogging has been very limited and probably E_E is busy as well, i apologize for comments sitting in the moderation cue. it looks like someone already approved all that’s sitting there. so someone’s looking after adkob – great! i’m off again… a little prayer request pls for my sinking biz!
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horsservice said
@Kay
The money paid on taxes is redistributed by other means, like healthcare.
It doesn’t just go in the pocket of politicians.
This redistribution has for effect to reduce costs for the whole society, and helps avoiding niche effects and some trickery. For example, better and free roads benefits the whole community, individuals as well as businesses.
It works this way in a lot of develloped countries, like France, Sweden, Norwegen.
It just depends on how it is done.
Seems that “common sense” is wrong once again.
/
Hey Kay, when you have time, don’t hesitate to answer my questions;)
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princessxxx said
i’ve been trying to stop in at least once a day for a few and check comments.
kay got me all worked up with this
https://tothewire.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/bill-kellers-devotional-on-current-events-reid-tiger-beck-haiti/
unbelievable!!!!
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kay-ms said
Hors.. the system you just explained is a socialistic government… with less jobs here, we all will be more dependent on the government. That is what the democratic left wants. This is just another example of the left USING an issue to gain goverment control and making it look like the right are the “bad, greedy” guys. It’s dirty tactics and no surprise at all coming from the left.
P, what is “unbelievable”?? That I criticized you for putting up a picture that shows human suffering? The news is so incredibly depressing right now… I just didn’t need to see that also.
Or is it unbelievable that I can’t agree with you about Bill? He should have used a different word but his poor choice of words doesn’t make him a racist. He was just trying to get the point across… he used “hyberpole”, something that Jesus used often… ( “remove the board from your eye so you can see to remove the spec from your brother’s eye”).
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
It is a fact that can be easily verified by checking the publicly accessible voting records that Republicans have done more lasting harm to the environment than Democrats, favoring legislation that makes it easier for big businesses to rape and poison the planet with little or no regulation or consequences. That has nothing to do with socialism. It’s just common sense. You don’t poison the planet you live on! DUH! However, many people are so consumed by greed that they don’t care, even if it means their own children or grandchildren are worse off. I guess they think they can always buy a desert island someplace untouched by the consequences of their greed. They are wrong.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
“with little or no regulation or consequences” I should have specified LEGAL consequences. Obviously mother nature will adjust to a new equilibrium even if it means the extinction of homo sapiens. Talk about natural consequences!
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kay-ms said
@ Hors
“1) I proved you that we BEGAN to explain our existence. Not that we had the answer.”
No, I disagree… a begining would be a theory. You have not presented even a theory on how we can get something from NOTHING.
I said: “And the only answer you could give me is eternal existence.
That goes AGAINST science because science is based on cause and effect.”
You say:
“No, that doesn’t goes against science: an infinite succession of cause and effect isn’t unscientific. It’s not because you’re unfamiliar with infinites that the universe is. For example, the universe is infinite, yet the quantity of matter it contains is finite, and the universe is expanding. This is not uncompatible.”
First, how do we know that the universe is infinite? And the understanding that the universe is expanding means that at one time it had a beginning.
Think about it.. how can we know for sure if something is infinite? Infinity is not a logical concept; it does not compute in our very limited “finite” brains.
Infinity can’t be proven in the same way that God can not be proven. These two theories are very much the same. And as I stated before, logic is on the side of a Supreme Being as opposed to there not being a Supreme Being.
YOu can argue that until “doomsday” which I’m sure you will (a true scot knows that EVERYTHING can be argued; I just made that up but I think it is very true) but the evidence leans heavily towards planning and purpose as opposed to accident.
Which, this leads very well to your question I think..
“I would much rather discuss about “God can’t be only the God of the Bible”. ”
I don’t know the exact context of this question so I’ll just give a short answer as to what I think your context is…
A Supreme Being would make Himself known… that makes the most sense.. as opposed to not making Himself known. (Of course you are going to argue that that might not be the case… but again, I’m talking about reason… what makes the most sense. It makes no sense for a Creator to create us and then just ignore us. Especially since purpose is so evident in His creation.)
The most known God is the God of the Bible.
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kay-ms said
“For example, better and free roads benefits the whole community, individuals as well as businesses.”
Jobs benefit the whole community… people who earn money can pay taxes for improved roads that benefit everybody.. the key difference here is that we are dependent on ourselves for our lifestyle as opposed to being dependent on the government for our lifestyle.
Have you heard of this saying by American President Gerald Ford?
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have. ”
“It works this way in a lot of develloped countries, like France, Sweden, Norwegen.”
That reminds me of another saying that you probably have an equivalent of in France.
“misery loves company”
Luckily, today, Americans proved how smart we are.. the majority could see where Obama was trying to take this country and did something before it was too late. We faught too hard for our freedom to let it be taken away from us.
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horsservice said
@Kay
For comments 179 and 183.
Well, for some of us the governement protect us against profit-based companies. I don’t fully agree, but it is right that companies are not thinking about long-term interest and common good.
More taxes doesn’t necessary means less jobs. Sometimes it means more.
For example, one of the main reasons for the fail of GM was the lack of a governemental healthcare.
Sweden unemployement rate: 4,5%
Norway unemployement rate: 2,6%
US unemployement rate: 7,8%
(source: index mundi)
And they have as much freedom as you.
Both approaches are debatable, but here are the facts. You can argue as much as you want.
And France unemployement rate: 7,4%
Still not very good, this approach doesn’t work everywhere and everywhen.
Don’t want to talk about it, it was just to inform you.
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horsservice said
@Kay
“No, I disagree… a begining would be a theory. You have not presented even a theory on how we can get something from NOTHING.”
No, if we would have a theory, we would have an anwser.
Example: The Fermat theorem in mathematics is a very famous problem. For 300 years, mathematicians from all countries tried to find and answer, having each different ideas about how to get to the solution. Finally, the answer was found in 1994.
Science is at the same position with the beginning of the universe: we have the problem, we have ideas about how to get to the solution, but no solution yet.
So, it’s a beginning.
“First, how do we know that the universe is infinite? And the understanding that the universe is expanding means that at one time it had a beginning.”
Because it contains everything, and because of mathematics. He is at least infinite in the 4 common dimensions. Even when it was a small of ball of extremely high density, it still was infinite. Yes, I know, it can be a bit disturbing.
If it is expanding doesn’t mean it necessarly had a beginning (as you understand it): it could be having phases where its expanding, then phases when its reducing. (Big Crunch theory) So there would be an infinite succession of Bangs and Crunches, each one leading to a different universe, but still the same, if you follow me?
Well, for now this is still a speculation.
“Think about it.. how can we know for sure if something is infinite? Infinity is not a logical concept; it does not compute in our very limited “finite” brains.”
Don’t be afraid if you can’t apprehend physical infinites: few people can, on Earth. You’re perfectly true when you say that we are not designed (by nature) to understand infinites. But this doesn’t mean that they don’t exist nevertheless.
For example, you find a great deal of infinites in maths. Tricky stuff. 100% sure to be infinites.
In nature, as you now, it’s impossible to now for sure anything. Just to be 99,99% sure. The universe is an example.
“Infinity can’t be proven in the same way that God can not be proven.”
In maths, infinity IS proven.
“These two theories are very much the same. And as I stated before, logic is on the side of a Supreme Being as opposed to there not being a Supreme Being.”
As I stated before, logic is on neither side. But to avoid unnecessary “where does it come from”s, I would say that no-God has a slightly advantage.
“YOu can argue that until “doomsday” which I’m sure you will (a true scot knows that EVERYTHING can be argued; I just made that up but I think it is very true)”
OOOOh I hate so much this racist stuff. I’m not even Scot. Well, you can argue until doomsday also.
“but the evidence leans heavily towards planning and purpose as opposed to accident.”
Still can’t see why. Just because there should be a cause to the effect “creation of the universe”? That’s a bit light to me.
/
Yay, back to the subject!
“Which, this leads very well to your question I think..
“I would much rather discuss about “God can’t be only the God of the Bible”. ”
I don’t know the exact context of this question so I’ll just give a short answer as to what I think your context is…”
?? I’m surprised you forgot already. Please re-read comments 24,36,41 and 47.
“A Supreme Being would make Himself known… that makes the most sense.. as opposed to not making Himself known. (Of course you are going to argue that that might not be the case…”
No I wasn’t. This makes sense to me also. Although it is possible that He may not make Himself know, I agree that perhaps it was necessary in the Great Scheme. Who knows?
“but again, I’m talking about reason… what makes the most sense. It makes no sense for a Creator to create us and then just ignore us. Especially since purpose is so evident in His creation.)”
I disagree on the “obviousness” of the purpose, but I agree with the rest.
“The most known God is the God of the Bible.”
Since christians and muslims exterminated a huge lot of people who disagreed, this isn’t surprising.
Christianity doesn’t even have the majority of believers. (although YHWH based monotheisms -judaism, christianism, islam and a few exotic others- have the majority, and that christians are the most numerous ones -relative majority-)
*And what about the beginning of christianism, when it wasn’t the n°1 religion? Was it wrong? Is truth a question of number of believers?
*And what about the beginning of times, when there was no christianism at all? Was there no God?
*And what about now? What if Islam is the religion of truth, carrying the last revelation, and destined to have more than christianity one day, but not yet because it’s a younger religion?
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kay-ms said
Hors, proving it on paper with numbers is not the same as proving it in the physical world.
An eternal universe is not logical (you did acknowledged that). Yet that is your answer to counter my point that science can’t even begin to explain the birth of our existence.
So, I am going to call that a victory for me. :o)
You said: “As I stated before, logic is on neither side. But to avoid unnecessary “where does it come from”s, I would say that no-God has a slightly advantage.”
How did you arrive at the belief that “no God” has a slight advantage?
Planning and purpose are evident all around us. The theory of Evolution tries to explain away this idea but it just doesn’t do an adequate job. The only thing that makes evolution arguable is adding time.. “give it enough time and it will happen”. That is the whole basis for evolution. It’s similar to “anything’s possible”. Planning and purpose make much more sense. And the only argument for that is… “where did God come from?”. Well that is the question that both sides are stuck with. So that question really cancels itself out. Planning and purpose are evident and obvious.
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kay-ms said
I said: ““YOu can argue that until “doomsday” which I’m sure you will (a true scot knows that EVERYTHING can be argued; I just made that up but I think it is very true)””
You: “OOOOh I hate so much this racist stuff. I’m not even Scot. Well, you can argue until doomsday also.”
This is a debate we never got around to that I would like to address down the road possibly. I don’t like my words being considered racial. But I’m not going to deny that I believe that personality traits can be passed in our dna. It is just too obvious. And this is so ironic because you are so science based in your aproach to things yet you deny this.
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kayms99 said
I said: ““YOu can argue that until “doomsday” which I’m sure you will (a true scot knows that EVERYTHING can be argued; I just made that up but I think it is very true)””
You: “OOOOh I hate so much this racist stuff. I’m not even Scot. Well, you can argue until doomsday also.”
This is a debate we never got around to that I would like to address down the road possibly. I don’t like my words being considered racial. But I’m not going to deny that I believe that personality traits can be passed in our dna. It is just too obvious. And this is so ironic because you are so science based in your aproach to things yet you deny this.
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horsservice said
@Kay
Don’t want to debate anymore about that^^
“Hors, proving it on paper with numbers is not the same as proving it in the physical world.”
You would be amazed about how the infinitely small and the infinitely big obey rather well the numbers. But well, it’s the whole point of doing experiments to see what you have wrong in your equations^^
If you want to have proof on whetever the universe is infinite, well, I can’t see one right now. I never get interested in that. Should do some research. I just believed the scientists who said that, since they are usually right (as it is possible to be in science), and since I don’t have the brain to follow.
“An eternal universe is not logical (you did acknowledged that).”
Where did I? An eternal is logical, just not logical to you and to common reasoning. It needs a bit of thinking. But you see, when you want to go deep in things, you will find that obviousness and common sense are not so obvious and seem paradoxal at the beginning.
A scientist is never as happy as when he founds something that seems to violate fundamental laws.
“Yet that is your answer to counter my point that science can’t even begin to explain the birth of our existence.”
My point is that we begin. Not that we do.
“So, I am going to call that a victory for me. 😮 )”
How surprising!
“You said: “As I stated before, logic is on neither side. But to avoid unnecessary “where does it come from”s, I would say that no-God has a slightly advantage.”
How did you arrive at the belief that “no God” has a slight advantage?”
Because it wipes out a level of recursion of “Where does it comes from?”.
“Where does the universe come from?” -> I don’t know
“God created it.”
“Where does God come from?” -> I don’t know
One level of “I don’t know” less! I win / But well, hey, it’s perfectly reasonnable to believe God created it, since nobody has a strict answer either. Just hang on, in 300 years you may have to revise your judgment^^ Or not, if we have found God.
“Planning and purpose are evident all around us. The theory of Evolution tries to explain away this idea but it just doesn’t do an adequate job. The only thing that makes evolution arguable is adding time.. “give it enough time and it will happen”. That is the whole basis for evolution. It’s similar to “anything’s possible”. Planning and purpose make much more sense. And the only argument for that is… “where did God come from?”. Well that is the question that both sides are stuck with. So that question really cancels itself out. Planning and purpose are evident and obvious.”
If I would have enough time and desire to answer you, I would tell you how much you are wrong and that evolution follows strict rules (what isn’t adapted doesn’t survive), and other stuff like that, who wouldn’t make you change your mind because you’re too much convinced that you’re a brilliant geologist, so I won’t.
^^
Instead, I will wait for your answers on the other debate!/ Craving for them. I expect them to be very interesting.
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horsservice said
EDIT: “I have never gotten interested”.
Makes more sense^^ I should do more research. Maybe.
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kay-ms said
“Because it wipes out a level of recursion of “Where does it comes from?”.
“Where does the universe come from?” -> I don’t know
“God created it.”
“Where does God come from?” -> I don’t know
One level of “I don’t know” less! ”
Well, I guess if you look at it from that ONE angle.. it’s arguable. But I’m looking at it from millions of angles that say otherwise.. it’s in everything around us; again purpose and planning.
“If I would have enough time and desire to answer you, I would tell you how much you are wrong and that evolution follows strict rules (what isn’t adapted doesn’t survive), ”
Nature follows strict rules that God put in place. I don’t deny that the theory of evolution has it’s merits… it’s just not the “other” answer instead of God.
I had a realization this morning.. part of which is that Bill Keller is right as usual. He told me awhile back that he doesn’t get into debates with Atheists, Mormons etc.; that he found it was a waste of time.
I am learning that finally I think. People are not going to change their minds. Dorian told me that also.
Some people, no matter how much logic and reason or proof that you give them, will not budge from their position.. they just silently fade away with their faulty views in tact. It’s a phenomenon that I really can’t understand. Because basically it is a person lying to themselves. And it is themselves who are going to suffer the consequences of not acknowledging the truth. Sometimes those consequences may be small or hardly noticable. But sometimes they are huge.
But it really does boggle my mind.
I thought today… what if Jesus came back today and proved Himself to us… could I see you Hors or TBG or Dorian or Princess or 1minion, or any other atheist that I’ve debated with, worshiping Him? I couldn’t see it. And if any of you did, it would surely be reluctantly. As a side note, I don’t think God is interested in that kind of worship much.
I just realized that that is really the true reason as to why people reject God. And how many will even go as far as to make it their career to prove to themselves that God doesn’t exist. It’s their motivation. Or they will study tirelessly for years and years on their own time, become extremely knowledgable but all the way continuing to bolser the bias view that they started with.
I know that pride and ego really are the reasons why people reject God. There is no other reason. Dorian and TBG pretty much reinforced that by certain things they have said recently… TBG complaining about worshipping the messager instead of the message (the message that no one would be able to get btw). Dorian complaining that people worship God, and that we should thank Him instead. What??
And, that is why you all hate Bill Keller so much. He really does have a true understanding of human nature and why people reject God. I always knew that he did have it right but I just see it even more clearly now.
It’s hard to acknowledge that there really is nothing I can say, or no point I can successfully reason or prove (or no “phoney” I can reveal) that will really change anything in anyone’s mind.
Pride and ego and the inability to humble one’s self is like some horrible disease that has no cure.
What say you all? If Jesus revealed Himself to you today, proved that He does exist and that the Gospels are true, could you see yourselves happily and eagerly worshiping Him?
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Enkill_Eridos said
Jesus wouldn’t come back today I am sure he is very angry at the organized religion that claims to follow his teachings yet are the exact thing he preached against….
Actually Kay you are very, very close. People reject God because of the ego and pride that radiate from the organized religion and the so called “true believers”. They show a pride and arrogance that contradicts the teachings of Jesus. That is the reason people reject God.
And to answer your question on What is enlightenment?
Enlightenment is about putting an end to all spiritual seeking. An Enlightened person has a highly developed cosmic wisdom and direct contact with the Divine, and free of ego. An Enlightened person very rarely gets angry. And usually try to promote enlightenment through word and action (DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR YET?)
You would be shocked to learn that more people attain this state of mind than ever before. You would be even more shocked to learn that these people have never heard an ounce of Buddhist theology. You would even more be shocked that I found a whole group of people that is like this. It was at a non-denominational unorganized Christian Church. The Pastor did not stand infront of a pulpit the focus was never on him for very long. Each of his sermons was based around gospel. He sat in the congregation and had a passage for passage read-round. Which is when a member of the congregation started a verse and they would go through one chapter every sunday, just like that. The pastor didn’t answer the questions out-right either he got people thinking about these passages. Not his interpretation, but he stimulated the person until the member understood the concept behind the passage so the person could interpret the passage himself. I found a church of enlightened christians..even though they never called themselves that. What is their secret? It is a group that’s only goal is to have a perfect understanding of Jesus, live as he lived etc. Those are True Christians, they don’t go out and be “fishers of men”. They encourage people to bring their family members, to learn. Not to listen to a guy in a fancy suit talk about what this person thought about Jesus. No they learned about Jesus, by coming to a complete understanding on how he lived, and then studied on different days on how can we live in that state of mind.
I came to the conclusion long ago that fundies live with the world…a True Christian must live in the world. They must experience life, not just live in accordance to what a man says. But how God says to live it.
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kay-ms said
“Actually Kay you are very, very close. People reject God because of the ego and pride that radiate from the organized religion and the so called “true believers”. They show a pride and arrogance that contradicts the teachings of Jesus. That is the reason people reject God.”
It you are right, that people are rejecting God because of the actions of His self proclaimed followers, then it clearly is an excuse that they use so that they CAN reject God. It’s not right to blame God for the actions of others who are not following what the Bible says. Wouldn’t you agree? The right thing to do is to reject the person who is displaying the un Christian like behaviours, not God.
If they truly wanted to believe in God, they would realize this. They are too quick to jump on any excuses they can find. And why is that? Because they do NOT want to have to be accountable to God, and they do not want to humble themselves and submit to Him. It’s pride and ego that is at the root of the cause of people who reject God.
It’s not that people are more educated today and that is why they reject God. It’s that people become more prideful because of their higher education that they reject God.
It’s not that the lesser developed countries or societies are made up of more believers because of their lack of advancement and education.. it’s that they can more easily accept their proper place in the big picture.
And yes, I agree, Bill Keller does sometimes display un Christian like qualities it seems. But that shouldn’t take away from his messages. I have found that what he says is true over and over. It is not advantageous to discount someone’s message just because you are offended by the way he is delivering it. And that is just another aspect of this… people are too quick to get offended because they are too focused on themselves… pride and ego.
People HATE Bill Keller and he has done nothing but relay the messages of the Bible. When he displays arrogance it is because he’s tired of the selfishness and stubornness of those that he is speaking to. Simply put, they do not put God first, or they reject Him all together. His attitude is saying ” GET OVER IT! Get over YOURSELF!” I know it’s not the right approach but I understand it.
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princessxxx said
no kay, it’s not the right approach, and as far as you understanding it, well that just speaks to how little you know about the teachings of jesus,.
follow bill keller all you want. it’s not going to get you anywhere.
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princessxxx said
and kay, i don’t think anyone of our other contributers hate keller except for me.
and why do i hate him? because i know he is wrong about most things including human nature.
i know he is a liar. i know he is a bigot. i know he is a thief.
and unless you are his wife nan or his suckretary susan,
i really doubt you have listened to keller as much as i have.
so i know what i am talking about.
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kay-ms said
I don’t know the teachings of Jesus because I understand anger and frustration? Because I dislike people being selfish, prideful and egotistical? Because I understand that a defense mechanism (attitude) is sometimes necessary because people who’s ego’s are so easily offended by the truth tend to be abusive and nasty and hateful. I do understand the idea of “turning the other cheek” and being meek. It’s just very hard when people hate you for teaching what the Bible says.. saying things that they do not want to hear. That’s why most or all of the prophets of the Bible were killed. People, with pride and ego issues do NOT like to be told they are not perfect.. that they are sinners.
And for the hundreth time I don’t follow Bill Keller but I do learn a lot from him, I trust his judgment and I trust his sincerity. You and others keep saying that he’s a fake but I still haven’t seen anything that proves that. All I see are excellently, sincerely written devotionals (yes, I know he’s been repeating them lately.. so what?) and someone who doesn’t preach what people want to hear so he can get more money from them. All I see is integrity and sincerity and dedication. I’m sorry, but I just can’t take your’s or Dorian’s or TTW’s word for it that he isn’t these things.. especially when you all come up with nothing to back up your accusations and I DO have his actions and words to back up my opinion of him.
Really.. how do you KNOW that he’s all of the things you described?? You make it sound like you have some kind of inside information. I’ve heard that before.. if it’s out there I would really really like to hear it. I certainly don’t want to trust someone who claims to love God but really doesn’t.
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Roberta Muldoon said
I am not familiar with the teachings of Bill Keller, so i cannot comment on that.
Perhaps Kay-Ms you may find these verses helpful to you.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Here we see that as servants we are to be gentle , taking the word to the lost that they may repent and be saved and thereby become all of the things already mentioned about what a Christian should be.
I hope this can be of some assistance. You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
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princessxxx said
oh hahaha kay, see, you are supposed to be gentle and instruct with meekness.
the ego problems seem to lie with you and billy, you don’t care what the bible says, you just call yourselves “christian” and then start blasting away at everyone.
nothing christian about it.
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kay-ms said
Thank you Roberta, I do need your prayers and Bill also. As I said in comment 196, I do understand that we are supposed to be gentle and meek but it is difficult sometimes and it does take practice, persistance and prayers… so I do thank you.
Turning the other cheek when people are attacking you is hard.. and remember P, Christians are not perfect.. no one is.. that is the whole point. That is why we need Jesus.
And Bill Keller is attacked constantly. You try it sometime… and see how well you do at keeping a perfect attitude. I think God is helping Bill to see that he has ego issues and needs to make some changes. I think Bill is a perfect example.. he truly is dedicated and truly has sacrificed his life for God yet he still has this problem.. that shows how powerful pride and ego can be.
P, (and Roberta) help me out… as far as I know, I’ve just been honest about what I’ve been observing. The reasons I believe that people reject God. What have I done wrong?
I am trying to be more gentle and meek and I know I need to try harder. But stating what I believe to be the truth and a REAL obstacle for people cannot be wrong can it?
In order to fix a problem you first have to identify it.. right? The real problem in this situation is that you really can’t tell someone of their problems with pride and ego without hurting their pride and ego. There really is no gentle way to do it. And that, I think, is why Bill takes the approach that he does… and I do too. Just be direct, confront the problem head on, no “walking on egg shells”. Being careful not to offend someone’s ego by telling them that they have real ego problems only supports the problem… kind of like giving a person drugs to help them get off drugs.
I noticed that no one wanted to answer my question about if Jesus were to come back today. That is ok. I really hope you all are thinking about it.. that’s all I really want. But also an honest debate or discussion if anyone disagrees with my points.
And TBG.. no response to comment 166? I accused you of being deceptive and dishonest. It is the conclusion that I’ve come to based on our debate. I really, honestly want you to prove me wrong. Because when you said the many things that you did since you’ve been on this blog, that are so convincing of your sincerity and honesty about wanting to find the truth… I believed you. It is human nature to want to believe people when they make the kind of statements like you did. And I do still want to believe you. But right now, I am convinced that you have just gotten good at taking advantage of that characteristic of human nature. I do believe that you have made yourself an enemy of God. And your true agenda is to fight against Christianity even though, as you’ve shown here, you have no real basis for believing that Christianity is false and that Jesus did not die for our sins.
At least, you couldn’t explain it to me, which I’ve asked you to do over and over.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay..Seriously? His self proclaimed followers are saying to do one thing and do the opposite.. That is not an excuse so they CAN. It is the reason. Maybe you don’t see something terribly wrong with hypocracy that is in the organized Christian Religion. Maybe you yourself is one of these self proclaimed followers. Answer me this one question.
1.)If Jesus came back this very second and looked at the collective actions of people who are apart of the hierarchical system that is organized Christianity. Would he be happy with it?
If you are struggling for that answer read Matthew, Mark, and Luke. THE ENTIRE BOOKS. Pay especially close attention to the actions and words of Jesus. Then tell me why he would be happy with it.
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kay-ms said
EE, I know that Jesus is not happy with the way many in the church are not following His teachings. And Bill addresses that all the time. How many Christian church groups are not concerned enough about people outside of the four walls of their church. They are more concerned about non spiritual things like building bigger and better churches. And especially how many churches have compromised God’s word. I’ve never denied that there are problems in “organized” Christianity… again, it is made up of humans. We are not perfect. But God is. And blaming Him for the actions of His followers is not justified.
And about judging which I am guilty of here… of accusing others of having problems with ego and pride; it is hypocritical judging that Jesus taught us not to do. I know that I have issues with pride and ego also, but not to the point where I will ignore the truth or use dishonest tactics to try to preserve my pride and ego. And if by chance I am guilty of that, I would want someone to point that out to me. Because I truly do want to be a better Christian and I do want to “get it right”.
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horsservice said
@Kay
Oh dang, seems that I will never have the answers to my questions… Then I won’t answer yours also (I don’t think you will miss it though^^).
By the way, dorian is christian. If Jesus would came and reveal Himself, she would be very happy, I think.
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Enkill_Eridos said
@Kay, It’s not that they deny God just the religion to profess to be the supreme authority on God. I am just saying it is the main reason why people reject Christianity. That does not mean they reject God. They just see things in a different way. And quite honestly we as a race have the intelligence to basically teach ourselves, with very little guidance needed. (It still is needed. But not as much as it was in the past.)See a Pastor or Ministers main job is to guide the member of the congregation in spiritual matters. They are also responsible for the teaching. I think Christianity must change, I think it should allow actual discussion on passages and that be what Sunday morning is all about. Instead of watching a pastor at the front of the room, a church’s sermons deal with having the whole congregation’s head down. Instead of the Pastor telling them what this passage means, what about a pastor helping each individual person come to their own understanding of the passage.
Bill Keller does speak that Christianity needs a reformation, but he doesn’t think people can figure this stuff out for themselves. He wants things to stay as they have been since the Dark Ages. But times have changed and religions must progress out of the past and into the present. Which means new things must be tried, and new developments in the fields of the social sciences should be taken into account.
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kay-ms said
Not so fast Hors… I’ll answer your questions, sorry it took so long.
I said: “An eternal universe is not logical (you did acknowledged that).”
You: “Where did I? An eternal is logical,”
This is what you said in comment 185
Me: ““These two theories are very much the same. And as I stated before, logic is on the side of a Supreme Being as opposed to there not being a Supreme Being.””
You: “As I stated before, logic is on neither side. But to avoid unnecessary “where does it come from”s, I would say that no-God has a slightly advantage.”
“neither” means “no”… is that what you meant?
The point I am alluding to is that there are only two choices… eternal universe or a God who created the universe.
I think you are trying to confuse things.
Eternal is not logical because there is no beginning. And in science there must be a beginning. Cause and effect. You argue that but don’t come up with anything solid to back it up except that we are “beginning” (ironically) to understand.
You said: “But you see, when you want to go deep in things, you will find that obviousness and common sense are not so obvious and seem paradoxal at the beginning.”
sorry, that doesn’t explain anything. And, even worse, you are starting to sound like a buhhdist… then you’ll REALLY not be making any sense.
The Buddhists and the atheists are to great examples of man futily and stubbornly trying to explain away the obvious… a Supreme Being. Which is the most logical answer. You keep trying to prove that it isn’t the most logical answer but you cannot do it.
Oh, and your other answer was to “just wait 300 years or so”. That is the crutch that athiests use… “time can eventually explain everything”. The theory of evolution is nothing but using the argument that anything is possible given enough time. Well, if that is the case, then God is possible also.
ok.. on to comments 24,36,41, & 47.
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kay-ms said
Hors said: “Therefore, I’m siding with the opinion that “all religions are true, in a certain way”. The truth can be obtained by several ways.”
So, if God’s enemy makes up a religion that is in reality worshiping him.. that religion is true? How do we know which are the “right” ones and which aren’t?
All religions cannot be true. It’s a great theory; wishful thinking in the name of peace and salvation for everyone but it just cannot be true in an imperfect world. There IS such a thing as false religions contrary to the poison the liberals are trying to force on the world.
Liberals do not want to acknowledge that evil exists. This has been alluded to by Dorian, TBG, EE and others. And they just completely want to ignore the fact that humans can be evil and do evil things. That they are driven by their egos. And one of the results is creating a “religion” where they themselves are worshiped and put on a pedestal that they already have themselves on.
But according to the liberal minded, anti-Christian people out there… these people apparently do not exist.
That is just more wishful thinking combined with extreme ignorance. Or worse; people who have purposefully made themselves true enemies of God.
For the wishful, ignorant ones who live in a make believe world where nothing bad happens, they need to understand that ignorning the problem won’t make it go away or not exist. And denying the truth only strengthens these false religions and cults.
Hors, could you please remind me of which questions you want me to answer?
I promise to answer them and then you can address my question that “surprisingly” no one wants to answer…
If Jesus came back today, proving that the Bible is true, could you worship Him?
And I guess TBBG (the buddhist bicycling guitarist) has gone the way of William the Mormon… not surprised at all…. and with their PROVEN faulty beliefs in tact no doubt… what a shame…”next?”
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Oh I’m still around, Kay, but realize the futility of trying to explain my views to you. YOU are living proof that the Hindus have it right about there being different paths for people who learn in different styles. I *think* I could explain your views to you to your satisfaction, where you would agree that I am summarizing your position accurately. You on the other hand demonstrate repeatedly that you do not have a CLUE what I am talking about. Go figure.
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iflay said
I don’t think anyone denies there is evil in the world. All you have to do is read your history books and watch the news. Why so much anger, Kay-ms??
Who are these people “driven by their egos?” and of “extreme ignorance”?
“Judge not, that you be not judged.” Matthew 7:1
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kay-ms said
TBG, so by your reasoning, I guess that the more complex a faith is the more likely it is to be true?
Or are you saying that I don’t understand your faith so I have no right to condemn it? Your point sounds like a manipulative tactic to get me to learn about your “religion”. I don’t need to learn all about a “religion” in order to know that it is not true. Of course all the liberals here will strongly disagree with that – mainly because they are anti Christian. And that is a very common anti-Christian belief… to learn about another faith before rejecting it. All you have to do is learn the key basic points to know if a religion is false or not.
And I don’t think MOST people could accurately explain back to you what you believe. It’s not very clear, I’m mean you yourself said it cannot even be explained properly in words.
So where does this very complex religion that requires so much understanding, leave those who aren’t good at understand such complex things? I guess they are just out of luck and left wandering down a path that will never lead anywhere for all eternity. My point is that it SHOULDN’T be so complicated. And Christianity isn’t. It is available to everyone who wants it… not just those who are smart enough to figure it all out.
I know enough of your religion to know that it is against God. And that is all I need to know.
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kay-ms said
Iflay, some people actually do deny that evil exists. And they don’t think that any religion is false… people right here on this very blog.
As to these verses in Matthew..
1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
These verses clearly explain that hypocritical judging is what Jesus is talking about… Verse 5: “You hypocrite..”.
The last line explains that after you have examined yourself and find that you are not guilty of the same thing, then you will be able to help others.
I do have problems with pride and ego, but as I’ve explained, I don’t let it get in the way of acknowledging the truth. And that is what I am accusing others of here. But I also know that I am not perfect; I acknowledge my faults also and I welcome those who honestly want to point out where I might be guilty of ignoring the truth out of pride and ego. I don’t think anyone else here is willing to say that.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay, just because my path is incomprehensible to you doesn’t mean it is wrong. It also doesn’t mean that anyone who can’t understand my path is lost. Like I said, there are other paths. Christianity works for you. More power to you. Good for you.
Don’t be so quick to judge others as being against God just because they don’t learn or reason the same way you do. Isn’t God big enough to reach different people according to where they’re coming from?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
and to prove again what I’ve said many times, yet one more example of Kay twisting my words apparently because she doesn’t understand them: “TBG, so by your reasoning, I guess that the more complex a faith is the more likely it is to be true?”
No, Kay. I never said that.
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1minionsopinion said
I finally agree with kay on something: All religions cannot be true.
LOL! Of course kay follows with hers being of course the only one that actually is. Ah well. She wouldn’t be kay otherwise. Heh.
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Princessxxx said
kay says, “The last line explains that after you have examined yourself and find that you are not guilty of the same thing, then you will be able to help others. ”
changing the meaning of jesus words again, kay?
what jesus really is saying was, after you take the beam out of your own eye, then you can help the brother with the speck.
that means, take care of your own problems first, not to check and see if you are a hypocrite and if your not it’s ok. gee whiz kay.
that’s what is wrong with religion, i sat all day yesterday and watched christian tv and saw one preacher after the other deciding that this really means that and that actually means this.
i.e. fat lard ass john hagee says in the bible when it says that eagles would eat their flesh, what the bible really meant was buzzards, not eagles.
therefore gods word is not inerrant.
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kay-ms said
“and to prove again what I’ve said many times, yet one more example of Kay twisting my words apparently because she doesn’t understand them: “TBG, so by your reasoning, I guess that the more complex a faith is the more likely it is to be true?”
No, Kay. I never said that.”
Did you notice that there was a question mark?… I was trying to quess what you meant.. why? because you didn’t make it clear as usual… and as usual I still don’t know what your exact point was. I can’t explain your beliefs back to you… so what? Anyone can make something up that makes no sense and say the same thing. It doesn’t support your argument.
And I say someone is against God when they deny what Jesus did for them. It is that simple. It is not based on how they learn or reason. And I STILL don’t know exactly why you have chosen to reject what Jesus has done for you.
“Isn’t God big enough to reach different people according to where they’re coming from?”
Yes, of course. And that is thru missionaries. And common sense says that God will not punish those who’ve never accepted Jesus because they’ve never been told about Him.
God’s word came thru the Jewish race. It had to start somewhere. Your question makes the implication that if Christianity is true why didn’t God bring it to all the people of the earth? How? The only (non supernatural) way to do that is thru missionaries. And that is the way He is doing it.
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kay-ms said
“LOL! Of course kay follows with hers being of course the only one that actually is. Ah well. She wouldn’t be kay otherwise. Heh.”
1minion.. would it make sense for me to choose to follow another religion that I DON’T believe is the true religion? That point that you guys keep bringing up makes no sense.
I do believe that Christianity IS the only way to receive salvation. AND… I am willing to debate that. You all keep critisizing me for this belief… but none of you seem to want to debate this to try and reason what the truth might be. I am willing to back up my beliefs… where as you all just make casual one liners and then quitely fade away without any further explanations.
This is exactly what I’ve been talking about… no one is willing (or can) support their views thru better reasoning than I can support mine… yet you all still hold on to your unjustified views anyway. This makes no sense to me and I can only attribute it to pride and ego… not wanting to be wrong.
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kay-ms said
P, so Jesus was against constructive criticism? How can you help others with their problem if you cannot even acknowledge the problem?
I honestly, truly do believe that pride.. not wanting to be wrong.. is an obstacle that hinders people from acknowledging the truth.
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dorian said
that’s just it, kay, no one thinks their religion is wrong. faith is something that doesn’t need justification. it goes far beyond culture or history. it’s emotion-based. trying to explain faith just doesn’t work in black and white.to understand someone else’s religion, you have to live and practice that religion. reading about it is not enough. i believe i know enough about the religion i was brought up in to know exactly what i didn’t like (or like) about it.
in discussing other religions, i’d have to defer to those who know better. i still say there is no “better” religion. it’s about the actions of the followers. and the kindest people i’ve known didn’t even follow any religion. too bad they’re going to hell, if one were to follow the christian fundamentalist point of view. those missionaries have a lot of ground to cover. lots of jungles with pagans and deserts with nomads. gotta follow the accomplishments of the early spanish missionaries. convert,subvert, colonize!!
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Princessxxx said
and dorian, you forgot the most important thing, burn all of their books and destroy their knowledge. that’s what the catholics did in south america.
kay, what jesus was saying was not constructive criticism. the point of that message is, instead of pointing out the problems or flaws of others, take care of your own first. there is no other explanation for those verses, unless of course you are like john hagee or jimmy swaggart or bill keller, then just interepret it as it suits your agenda.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay what is “the truth”?
If you mean that EVERY religion rejects the possibility that they are too narrow minded and short sided to actually see every religion has stories that has the EXACT same conceptual ideas (For those who get confused with big words, The Moral of the story, or The underlying message.) These concepts are not always the obvious THIS MEANS THAT..Like what Asop did. You have to actually read what is trying to be said. That means using the right side of your brain. Actually visualize yourself in the scene and observe what is going on. Do this while reading it, you may actually catch what the story really means and not what someone else thinks it means.
(VH1 Pop-up: Did you know that women that were left handed were killed by the various Christian Denominations of “witchcraft”? Even when no evidence of “witchcraft” was found? It was believed that things that represented the right side of the brain was sinful. For example left handedness, true compassion, art, independent thought and creativity. And women were killed if they met any of those criteria.)
I mean every religion speaks against murder, theft, adultry, and other bad things. Every religion also speaks about the History of Man (Which really most creation myths including Judaism/Christian say the same thing. The only difference is the culture of the parts of the world.) how to live spiritually (which most are basically in line with each other. There are a few that are kinda wierd, and do not fit with the other religions. Those usually end up having a really insane theology about murder, mayhem the opposite of the main religions.) All religions believe in a being that tests the faithful. Loki, Satan, the Coyote (The only trickster actually not shown as evil, but apart of the whole in his place.) Which coincidently the Native Americans of Mesoamerica and the main body of North America actually teach the same things that Judaism teaches. That Satan in terms of Job had to answer to God, and ask God for permission before tempting Job. The Coyote had to consult with the Great Spirit to play a trick on a certain tribe. There are many others but you all can use google, besides if I posted anything that was too lengthy a majority of you would ignore it anyway. But all of these stories, myths, parables, fables whatever you want to call them all have a connection yet they are seperated by languages, and cultures. But the message is all the same (Except in a few, but those are cults of Satan, Apep, and a few others. And even those theologies and teachings do not actually line up completely with other teachings about the same character in the general vacinity of where these characters taught existed. So its very easy, for me anyway, to discern the truth from fiction.
I know one of the many rebuttles..so I am going to prerebuttle that rebuttle.
Rebuttle: These other religions were created to honor other Gods.
My Rebuttle: Yes and No. Yes because they worshiped the named characters in these myths. No because these named characters could very well be the same being, just a conceptual representation (that went over everyone’s head) of one being different moods.) It is very plausible that Allah is the same as Jehova. (Angelicized Bastardation of the Jewish word YHWH.)
Of course one prophet (Moses) was a learned man for a man in the Bronze Ages. The other was a hobo basically, that was a womanizer and a drunk. (He may have been a prophet, but before that historically he was the things i mentioned, deal with it. There were other prophets that were drunks too. Didn’t really make them correct, but some of them were/are regarded as such.) So of course somethings will be different, but for my explination I am saying that literally these teachings and theologies are not valid. The real word of God is the concepts behind the teachings and theologies. The things that God figured that we would be able to understand that his will is not in the words but the actual reason, idea, truth, concept, moral etc. The phrase “God is in the details” was coined for more of a reason than a snappy line for forensic TV shows.
That quote could mean a lot of things, but I have found it especially true when you read between the lines in the bible. (No there is not actually text in between the lines..you are a moron if you think that’s what I mean. Reading between the lines is the idea that the writer is trying to convey. Reading between the lines meaning recognizing and understanding what that writing actually is trying to say, and not the words on the paper.)
Then compare those concepts you find in the bible, with concepts in other religious holy books. There is a pattern and layers when it comes to spirituality (yes spirituality does belong in Christianity. Keep in mind that spirituality is the act of cultivating your “soul” or non physical body. It is not what many “New Age Guru’s” say it is. Spirituality is not a religion it is a vital part of every religion. Again another connection with each other.)
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dorian said
yeah, p! the wiping out of the subjugated native inhabitants’ history and religious text and way of life is rape, pillaging and desecration of the worst kind. all in the name of their “true” religion. the conquerors had the weapons. convert and give us all your riches or die. they went as far as southeast asia, did the same thing to the philippines.
e_e, i’m sure enough of us read you. you always give good food for thought.
btw the new sanctuary page is so nicely put together, i almost don’t want to touch it!
a good day to all, keep warm!
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kay-ms said
Dorian, just because someone doesn’t think their religion is wrong; that they have faith in it, that doesn’t mean it can’t be wrong. I agree that faith is a personal thing and no one can say what they are feeling is right or wrong but what they put their faith in CAN be wrong. People CAN have misguided faith.
“to understand someone else’s religion, you have to live and practice that religion. reading about it is not enough.”
So are you saying that in order to reject another religion we must first live and practice it? For starters, that isn’t realistic. And there are plenty of “religions” out there that even you would agree are not worthy of our time and effort and are even dangerous. But by your philosophy, we should live and practice those also?
As I said earlier, it really is only necessary to learn the basics of a religion to be able to fairly reject it. Your liberal (sorry) views on this are very anti-Christian… as liberal views are.. these views encourage us to learn about false religions. Which, I know, liberals don’t believe exist (false religions).
Your views (liberal views) completely ignore the reality that some “religions” and cults can be, AND ARE, harmful and dangerous!
There really ARE false religions! And discernment is necessary! The ideology that you are supporting completely ignores this.
And Dorian and P,… again, singling out the faults of Christians is not an argument against Christianity… it only shows that even Christians are not perfect and can even do evil things. That is not God’s fault.
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kay-ms said
” it’s about the actions of the followers. and the kindest people i’ve known didn’t even follow any religion. too bad they’re going to hell, if one were to follow the christian fundamentalist point of view. ”
These “kindest” people can’t be that kind if they can reject what Jesus has done for them.
It seems sometimes that people who reject God and who do “good” things are motivated by their desire to “prove” that they are kind and “good” even though they reject God. It’s ultimately themselves they are serving.
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dorian said
kay are you saying kindness and goodness in a person doesn’t count if they do not worship your christian version of God and Jesus? i don’t think Jesus loves conditionally. and what about the indians in the amazon jungle and other indigenous tribes all around the world that worship their pagan gods, for example? because they do not know and accept Jesus, well, tough luck, they go to hell by default? your heaven is a very small, exclusive place. and i don’t think you care much about sending everyone else to hell because you are so “right” and justified with your interpretation of good and evil according to your pastor. because gandhi or mother theresa do not comply with your religious rules, their kind deeds and work for humanity is moot. they’re in hell with the amazon indians and everyone else. so i guess you are under the presumption that gandhi is a self-serving man who was pretending to do good things to “prove” to everyone he was good. oh boy. why so negative about everything that’s different from you?
go ahead, twist away…
i think you really know what everybody is saying. just pretending not to. one thing, though, you only make our own beliefs stronger. i’m sure it’s likewise for you. so be it!
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dorian said
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Enkill_Eridos said
Yes, some are harmful and dangerous, but the ones that are any one with more intelligence than a 4 year old can discern, well this point of view goes against 98% of what every other religion talks about. Just as an example. The most harmful religions view things in absolutes where there are none. The most harmful religions reject anything that is remotely spiritual. The most harmful religions ignore what that religion is based on. The most harmful religions will destroy anything that does not work with their religious views. The most harmful religions think that their followers are stupid, and treat them as such. The most harmful religions are the complete opposite of their OWN core beliefs. The most harmful religions say it is okay to destroy the one planet that is known 100% habitable.
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kay-ms said
“kay are you saying kindness and goodness in a person doesn’t count if they do not worship your christian version of God and Jesus? ”
First, to clerify.. it’s not “my” version. It’s the Biblical version. It’s the version that the MAJORITY of Christians adhere to. I don’t know why I have to keep pointing that out.
Second, as I asked earlier…how good can a person be if they reject what Jesus has done for them?
Let me try to put it this way… say that you loved someone so much that you actually died for them.. so that they could live. And what if that person, in response, said “nah.. you didn’t do that for me” and just continued about their lives not giving you any more thought. How would that make you feel? Now realize that I’m not talking about a mere human that has made the sacrifice but God.
Gandhi has done good things but doing good things can’t always make up for the bad things. And rejecting what God has done for us is not only a bad thing but the worst thing we can do. If I could, I would ask Gandhi why he chose to reject what Jesus has done for him. I would ask what specifically made him decide that the Gospels were not true. And how he could be sure.
Mother Teresa was a Christian… she acknowledge what Jesus had done for her and she spent her life serving Him out of gratitude and love.
“i don’t think Jesus loves conditionally. ”
You are right… and He only wants us to love Him in return.
“and what about the indians in the amazon jungle and other indigenous tribes all around the world that worship their pagan gods, for example? because they do not know and accept Jesus, well, tough luck, they go to hell by default? ”
I just specifically addressed that several comments up…
TBG said: “Isn’t God big enough to reach different people according to where they’re coming from?”
Me: “Yes, of course. And that is thru missionaries. And common sense says that God will not punish those who’ve never accepted Jesus because they’ve never been told about Him.”
Your question implies that God isn’t capable of judging fairly. Or that He isn’t “allowed” to make exceptions. God is Sovereign. He can do whatever He wants.
“your heaven is a very small, exclusive place.
It’s not “my” Heaven. And, just to mention.. there’s that “tone” again that I am not very fond of.
“and i don’t think you care much about sending everyone else to hell because you are so “right” and justified with your interpretation of good and evil according to your pastor.
Dorian, it is NOT me that is sending anyone to hell… I’m detecting a telling pattern here.
It’s the Bible (God’s word) that explains it clearly. It has NOTHING to do with me or Bill or any other Christian. What will it take to make you all understand that?? what??
“so i guess you are under the presumption that gandhi is a self-serving man who was pretending to do good things to “prove” to everyone he was good. ”
I don’t know that much about Gandhi but I would be willing to guess that even though he liked Jesus because ” he is so unlike you Christians”, he was trying to prove that he was not wrong for rejecting the Gospel. He wanted to say that it’s really all about being “good” and spreading peace and love. Well, guess what.. EVEN Gandhi was not all “good”. But maybe he didn’t want to acknowledge that.. that he needed Jesus to make even him right with God. That’s what I’m guessing.
“i think you really know what everybody is saying. just pretending not to. one thing, though, you only make our own beliefs stronger. i’m sure it’s likewise for you. so be it!”
That’s funny Dorian.. even funnier than the comics you posted.
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kay-ms said
“Yes, some are harmful and dangerous, but the ones that are any one with more intelligence than a 4 year old can discern, well this point of view goes against 98% of what every other religion talks about. Just as an example.”
So the deceivers of the world are just not clever and deceitful enough to trick anyone above the age of 4?
People of all ages are deceived. It isn’t always blatantly obvious. That’s how deception works.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
You’re right Kay, you don’t know much about Gandhi. He was possibly the most Christ-like public figure of recent history. For you to presume he needed to get right with God because he wasn’t a Christian is arrogant ignorant nonsense.
It is my sincere opinion that many of the so-called pagans preached to by those missionaries you love so much are closer to God than many if not most Christians are. It is arrogant for Christians to presume that their understanding of spiritual matters is above everyone else’s. Wow.
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1minionsopinion said
I think all religions are made up by human beings, kay, that none of them are true. People made up pantheons of gods because they wanted to explain the inexplicable and justify their thoughts, feelings and actions by claiming some god says it’s okay to do, say or think the way they do, even if it really isn’t.
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Princessxxx said
and mother theresa, she doubted god existed.
Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear.
— Mother Teresa to the Rev. Michael Van Der Peet, September 1979
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html
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Princessxxx said
“And in fact, that appears to be the case. A new, innocuously titled book, Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light (Doubleday), consisting primarily of correspondence between Teresa and her confessors and superiors over a period of 66 years, provides the spiritual counterpoint to a life known mostly through its works. The letters, many of them preserved against her wishes (she had requested that they be destroyed but was overruled by her church), reveal that for the last nearly half-century of her life she felt no presence of God whatsoever — or, as the book’s compiler and editor, the Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, writes, “neither in her heart or in the eucharist.”
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dorian said
kay, per # 223, let me clarify that the context here for “you” and “your” was meant to be collective. referring to “your heaven…” and “your interpretation…”, etc., meaning the entire christian fundamentalist heaven and bible interpretation; not just yours personally.
“your dog..”, personal.
“my dog”, needs a walk. i obey.
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kay-ms said
Princess… you are wrong to say that Mother Teresa doubted that God existed.
As the article explains, she had periods of doubt and that EVERYONE does. She lamented that she
did not feel Jesus’ presence. The article explains that this started when she began to tend to the poor and dying in Calcutta…
“That absence seems to have started at almost precisely the time she began tending the poor and dying in Calcutta, and — except for a five-week break in 1959 — never abated. Although perpetually cheery in public, the Teresa of the letters lived in a state of deep and abiding spiritual pain.”
Her response is normal, it is a lack of understanding of why God allows suffering. It doesn’t mean she doubted God’s existence. If that was her true belief she would have left the Church.
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kay-ms said
Dorian, then why don’t you just say that? Instead you make it sound personal. (and in that arrogant “superior” way that is so annoying). Please feel free to critisize my tone also.. I’m sure I am annoying also in my tone sometimes.
Still, as per TBG and you in comments 228 & 232, you both STILL want to put the focus on “us” Christians… and as I said.. it’s NOT and shouldn’t be about Christians.. it’s about God.. what the Bible says. And that is where the debate should be.. because clearly you do not agree with the Christian interpretation of the Bible… so let’s debate that… like why TBG and you have chosen to reject the gospel. It’s just not about the followers.. it’s about the faith.
But clearly, it’s much easier to make it about the followers, who are human and have faults… much easier.
TBG, Gandhi was “Christ like” good for him… I can tell you right now he was NEVER sinless like Jesus was. No matter what you want to believe. He rejected that fact and the salvation that was offered to him thru Jesus’ sacrifice. Denying the fact that you and every other human being is not without sin is what is arrogant and ignorant.
“It is arrogant for Christians to presume that their understanding of spiritual matters is above everyone else’s. Wow.”
Once AGAIN.. if someone doesn’t believe that theirs is the correct way then why are they following it??
It is not arrogant.. it’s making a choice. Your ignorant liberal view says to not make a choice.. that everyone is right.. it’s not only ignorant.. it’s, I’m sorry to say, stupid and not possible.
And how in the world can someone be closer to God when they can’t even describe Him? They do not even know Him and have none of His words? Christians know who God is. Everyone else is following a god who is made up.. like Joseph Smith’s god who comes from the planet Kolob. That is NOT the true God.
1minion, I think you are right.. that gods were made up to fulfill human needs in many cases… all except One.
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Princessxxx said
no kay, i’m not wrong, mother teresa said it in her own words.
once again, you go and twist the truth.
i don’t think a 5 week period of not having doubt in that old trolls life would really mean she believed in god.
she just kept working with the poor because, guess what, no one else was.
i actually read that book, it wasn’t really very god positive.
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dorian said
okay. kay, you can be just as arrogant as everyone else in this group.
no shrinking violets here, that’s for sure. that’s the fun of it.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
What gets me about SOME Christians is how they try to tell me they have the ONE true faith, but then say something really stupid like evolution doesn’t happen or we aren’t related to chimpanzees.
When they are so obviously wrong about something so easily checked that has SO much evidence proving they are wrong about that, how can I possibly take their word on spiritual matters?
Imagine Kay that someone comes to your door and says they have the one true faith, but that to believe it you also have to accept the earth is flat and the sun goes around the earth. THAT is how stupid it is!
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Christians seem to be among the worst of any people about understanding faiths other than their own. Most Christians I have met have NO IDEA what some other faiths believe or why, but instead offer twisted explanations that are so far off base it would be funny if such misunderstandings weren’t such a cause of conflict in the world today.
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Enkill_Eridos said
I like how she agrees with me but does not actually get what I am saying…Or maybe she does, I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t care. Those with their eyes constantly closed will never see, those that never listen never truly hear. Those with their mouths shut to injustices that are performed, are just as guilty as the ones who commit injustices.
People are free to believe what they wish, and there are a lot more that accepts Jesus, but they reject the religion that teaches it. To reject the Church is not to reject God. To reject the Church is just that. The Church has become exactly like the Hebrew Church of the time of Jesus. The Catholic Church this is more evident, but the other Christian Churches (Jehovah Witnesses, LDS, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc.) are organized much like the Pharisees of the time of Jesus.
In short to reject the Church is the same as rejecting a cult, you will not go to hell if you do so, just as long as you do not reject that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. That is from a theological standpoint.
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kay-ms said
Once again.. it’s not about what Christians do and it’s not about what Christians believe. And it’s not about rejecting “organized” Christianity. It’s about accepting what Jesus has done for YOU. It’s that simple.
TBG, what “misunderstandings” are you talking about that are causing conflicts??
I truly don’t think you know what you are talking about. The conflicts are from those who do not respect the rights of others to believe what they choose. Those that inflict violence on others for following a different faith.
Princess, you want to make Mother Teresa an atheist and she was not. If she was she would have left the church.
Dorian, as usual.. great arguments… NOT!
I just realized this today… Joseph Smith made up this god that came from the planet Kolob. It really is the most ridiculous thing. I asked myself, ” why would he make up something that sounds so ridiculous? People are going to hear that and call Mormons “idiots” for believing such a thing. But then I realized that it actually works FOR the cult. It actually keeps people in the cult because of their pride. They will NEVER want to admit that they were “idiots” for falling for Smith’s lies.. so they will stay with it to the end in order to avoid admitting they were wrong. And that is exactly what everyone here does also. satan sure knows how to manipulate and control people.
This is the reason “Mormons won’t tell you certain things when they come knocking on your door”. They wait until you’ve invested your pride and then they’ve got you.
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Princessxxx said
gosh kay, are you going to argue against mother teresa’s own words, written with her own hand?
well, i guess if you have no problem misinterpreting the words of jesus, you have no problem twisting mother teresa’s words.
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kay-ms said
No, I’m arguing your interpretation of her words. I acknowledge that I didn’t read the book; what exactly were her words that you are basing your opinion on that she became an atheist?
Did you read the Time article? The author of the book himself doesn’t believe that she abandoned her faith.
And I also particularly want to mention how the “evil” Catholic church WANTED her letters preserved even though she requested that they be destroyed. Why would they want to do that? One of the most prominent followers of the faith is expressing doubts. You’d think that they would want to burn her letters just as they burned those books in the past.
They knew that her struggle would help others who might be going thru the same thing. And that it actually showed how strong faith can be as the author explains…
“Yet Kolodiejchuk sees it in St. John’s context, as darkness within faith. Teresa found ways, starting in the early 1960s, to live with it and abandoned neither her belief nor her work. Kolodiejchuk produced the book as proof of the faith-filled perseverance that he sees as her most spiritually heroic act.
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kay-ms said
STILL no one has answered my question… Why?
I’ve pretty much silenced everyone here… no one wants to debate.. no one wants to give specific reasons for why they have chosen to reject Jesus and what He’s done for them.
That SHOULD be a sign to each of you. But will it be heeded?
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay,
Really? No I will debate with you about this even though you are not understanding what I am saying.
For one thing, I recognize what Jesus has done for me. But I do not recognize the organized denominations as valid. I am not against churches, there are many that do follow the teachings of Jesus. There are also not-for profit organizations that do as well. What I am against is sensationalist preaching, I am against the whole concept of an organized hierarchical church. I am against hypocrisy, and corruption in religion.
What I am for is an actual study of the bible in a group. One where everyone comes up with their own conclusion. One that people actually learn about the message God was sending. Angels are God’s messengers, but Jesus as a person both in words and actions IS the message. And he was very clearly against the Jewish Hierarchical Temples, in fact the ones that stood to lose the most power was the ones that were very quick to have him killed. So why should one accept the teachings and actions of a kind of religion Jesus actually preached against as valid?
The Organized Hierarchial Churches have been deceiving everyone. Now people are intelligent enough to see the truth without need of preachers. People are hearing the word and reading the word and understanding it, without the Churches. (This kind of sounds familiar doesn’t it?) Many Christians actually prefer a Bible Study Group type of format for a church. (There have been 5 new churches with this format in the area I live in. And they are growing fast, and stick strictly to scripture. The pastors that run it usually don’t preach about theology, but they go through and ask questions designed to make a person think on what that passage, or Gospel actually means to them.)
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kay-ms said
EE, I don’t disagree with you on this. ( I just said it’s not about accepting or rejecting the organized church.. and I don’t like hypocrisy and corruption either.. who does?)
I have said before; I believe that we do need to figure out for ourselves what the passages say. But I do NOT believe the passages have different “true” meanings for each person. There are parts of the Bible that seem to conflict with each other and I believe that requires us to look within our hearts to determine what the true meaning is. And that is precisely (sp?) what God is interested in.. what is in our hearts.
If someone wants to take that one passage where Jesus says “ye are all gods” and interpret that to mean that we are all gods ourselves equal with God, then that REVEALS what is in their heart. True Christians understand that we are NOT equal with God, that humility is required as even Jesus had demonstrated when He was here. It’s all about if we are interpreting the passages to fit with what WE want or with what God wants.
What has been puzzling me though about this point of yours is that in the past you have claimed that the Bible is not accurate because of corruption in the church. So what is the point in studying the Bible if it has been corrupted?
“Now people are intelligent enough to see the truth without need of preachers. ”
It seems that you are wanting to dismiss preachers as not having any value in guiding us.
Yes.. there ARE corrupt preachers. But that is the minority. And yes, even the good preachers can be wrong sometimes. People need to be reminded of this.. that we do not follow the preacher, we follow Christ.
I emphatically disagree with your view on this. Bill Keller, as one example, has put forth so much truth and valuable information that benefits others spiritually. NO doubt he’s helped people realize the truth about Mormonism and other false “religions”.
He WARNS us about the people and things that are harmful to us spiritually and lead us away from God and the truth.
He tells people, that according to the Bible, we need to love Jesus and live for Him because of what He did for us.
Your views are very misguided EE.
And one more time… It’s NOT about rejecting or accepting the “organized” church.
And guess what?.. Bill Keller agrees with you on this also… he does not attach himself to any specific denomination of Christianity!
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kay-ms said
how odd… I haven’t gotten any “in moderation” posts for quit awhile.. until now.
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princessxxx said
no kay, you are very misguided, still defending bill.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay claims: ” Bill Keller, as one example, has put forth so much truth…”
Considering how wrong he is about something so easily verified as the age of the earth and the fact of evolution, that makes anything he says about spiritual matters much less credible.
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kay-ms said
Bill chooses to put his faith in God ahead of science. He is not stupid, he knows about the science and evidence. So, really, Bill is showing an incredible amount of faith and that only strengthens his credibility as a spiritual adviser.
You, on the other hand, choose to put all of your faith in science. And you completely dismiss the possibility that God could have made exceptions within the science as we understand it today.
Even though the very BASIS for our existence can only be explained as supernatural and UNSCIENTIFIC, you still ignorantly and stubbornly insist that scientific evidence (by our limited standards) can be the ONLY explanation. That is ignorance. Especially when you actually claim that you believe in God. You make no sense.
And Bill actually backs up his beliefs with explanations. You don’t. So I hope you don’t think that anyone actually believes that anything you say is credible.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
What Bill Keller claims about evolution is just as stupid and just as wrong as insisting the earth is flat. It really is that obvious to anyone who examines the evidence. IF he really does know about the science, he wouldn’t take the position he does. He’s an ignorant buffoon.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Bill Keller is not taking a stance on faith. It is on furthering his own agenda. It’s self-serving and not Christlike. He doesn’t deserve his ordination. Because if he did he wouldn’t say the world began exactly when civilization began. It’s retarded to think that because even the Bible infers that the Earth is older than man. The actual jewish text infers human beings on Earth before the so called creation. What if the whole story of creation, was not the story of physical creation? What if it was a story about spiritual creation? Because Humanity was around a long time before that happened. There is evidence of that. Just like Bill Keller, you use platforms to further your own agenda. You twist peoples words to fit YOUR goals. Don’t believe me? Then look at the past. People like you destroyed this country. People like you and Bill Keller is making me think that living in another country may be better. And I love this country. I just hate what it has become because of selfish, self serving, and ignorant people. Our founding fathers would probably be very angry if they saw what this great nation has become. This nation has become every man, woman, and child for themselves. And step on anyone that gets in your way. Kay I believe you embody EVERYTHING that is wrong with this country. Fundamentalists of all religions has destroyed this country. If you do not understand what I am saying figure it out for yourself, because I am done debating theological issues. There’s no other point to it than just to further KAYS agenda. I refuse to be apart of the problem anymore. I will become apart of the solution. Everyone is free to do as they like. Expect Kay to twist things to fit her view instead of trying to see it how the other person sees it. Expect Kay to spout her Fundamentalist poison. But, I am done with it.
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Princessxxx said
***THE SPECIAL MESSAGE FOR MONDAY THE 25TH….WILL AIR THIS COMING MONDAY, FEBRUARY 1ST. I NEED THE WEEKEND TO PRAY OVER THE MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE I HAVE EVER SENT! YOU MUST NOT MISS THIS SPECIAL DEVOTIONAL!!! THE JONAH PROJECT IS LIVEPRAYER’S PLAN TO LEAD THIS NATION BACK TO THE GOD OF THE BIBLE AND BIBLICAL TRUTH. NOW COMES THE UNVEILING OF HOW WE WILL DO IT! THIS IS A MESSAGE YOU CAN’T AFFORD TO MISS ON HOW GOD CAN USE YOU TO BE PART OF A MOVEMENT TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE SPIRITUAL DIRECTION THIS NATION IS CURRENTLY ON!!!! – bill keller
well first he needed one more day to pray then two now a whole week.
oh, kay, bill can pray from here till eternity but his latest project will fail as did every other thing he has attempted to do. keller’s prayers dont’ work.
e-e you are absolutely right, kay and keller represent everything that is wrong with this country. using jesus for the advancement of arrogance and ignorance.
if keller was so spiritually connected with god he wouldn’t be in the position he is in.
doesn’t anyone else find it odd that mother teresa felt so seperate from god and yet god takes the time to tell bill keller to die his hair blond. oh hahahahahaha, such an almighty.
hahahahahahahahahah.
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Enkill_Eridos said
I don’t think Mother Theresa actually meant that she was separate from God. But the God the Catholic Church and other organized Christian Churches portrayed. She actually more than likely felt separate from the Church’s ideas of God…I am not actually debating. I am just trying to put another perspective on the Mother Theresa thing. And if it is yours I am just making seem less anti-God. If it isn’t that’s fine, but if we put together everyone elses true perspective together than we get a feel of a bigger picture.
My agenda is very plain, it is not secretive. My ambitions is not to actually help someone else’s agenda or career. My agenda is for everyone to get a feel of this bigger picture I have come to see. I know that everyone will see this differently, and most will reject it sticking to a narrower point of view. It is human nature for everyone to think they are correct. It is my nature to think that everything is correct that everything is what makes up this bigger picture.
Also the view Tiger Woods must become Christian to be forgiven by his wife is very narrow minded and unchristian like in the first place. Jesus taught about tolerance, and telling people about the message (him) not killing because they do not recieve it. Jesus said EVERYONE deserves forgiveness. Forgive them Father for they know not what they do. HIS exact words. He did not say Forgive them Father for they know not what they do, if they believe I am the messiah. He gained followers not just by the miracles he preformed, but his actions. He was killed because if he was allowed to live the Pharisees would loose a lot of power, money, and influence. The funny thing is things are going full circle and no one sees this.
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kay-ms said
Jesus died because it was God’s plan. God was always in control. But I agree that those were the reasons that the pharasees wanted Jesus killed; out of jealousy and greed.
“Kay I believe you embody EVERYTHING that is wrong with this country. Fundamentalists of all religions has destroyed this country.”
I know that you’ve conveniently “excused” yourself from giving me specifics (“I’m done with it”) but I’m going to ask anyway… it’s not right to criticize others without giving any explanations for those accusations. That seems to be a popular practice here by the liberals. Arrogant sanctimonious accusations without ever backing them up.
When you all do that and don’t give any specifics, I can’t defend myself… (or improve myself if by some outside chance your critisisms are actually constructive).
But maybe that is the idea… if you give specifics then I can prove you wrong. Dorian is especially guilty of doing this. I always have to ask for specifics (from everyone) after being critcized and I NEVER get them. And this goes all the way back to the SNL days.
You too P…
“e-e you are absolutely right, kay and keller represent everything that is wrong with this country. using jesus for the advancement of arrogance and ignorance.”
I certainly do not want to be guilty of that. Could you please explain why you believe that?
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Princessxxx said
well, as a starter, go back and read everything i’ve posted so far about keller.
and kay, you are only guilty by association. i don’t think you are evil like keller, just misguided.
i’m trying to give you the bigger picture, here.
so monday, if keller ever finally gets around to relaunching his “jonah project” as he says, i will make a fair and balanced post pointing out the many flaws of bill keller and liveprayer.
i know, i know, everyone is saying, “oh yeah, another bill keller posting, i can hardly wait.”
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay, you missed my point about the Pharisees. I agree God was in control of that whole thing, from the Pharisees seeing the truth and being afraid. To Jesus being tempted. Jesus saw this and just let himself be controlled as well.
But looking at the reasons and how they worked. Can you really not see the huge parallels? Just look at the structure, compare it with modern day Organized Christianity. I’m done debating theology, because there is no point in it anymore. There is a simple reason. Mankind has been living in Revelations since 1671. That’s when the really bad stuff started to happen. And then gradually the four horsemen came into the picture. The only two things not fufilled yet is the son of the Antichrist, and the day of judgment. Is the day of judgment coming within our lifetimes? Yes. Will the human race be wiped from the universe? No. The day of judgment is not the end of the human race. Just the end for the plan of redemption. If you read about the day of judgment close enough, you will see life on earth resumes. The day of judgment is only the beginning for something far bigger. The next logical step for humanities evolution is not physical. The human race will never go through macroevolution again. We have been evolving since the beginning of civilization. Which is the beginning of time as we tell it. Years, days, months we never recorded those until around 3145 B.C. The scripture was clear that mankind existed before then. The first chapter of genesis just showed when man first became intelligent. When man went beyond instinct. When man understood the difference between right and wrong. We went from animals living in small groups, to humans living in cities. I see Genesis as explaining the start of the next logical step in evolution. Consciousness. We were let evolve, this is all happening for a much bigger reason than for at the end everyone will die. I am sure that on Christmas Day 2012, humanity will still be on Earth. And they will be in direct contact with the Supreme Being. I believe on that day Christianity will not be as it is now, but the way God wants it. Then we will move forward instead of staying still.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Also Kay, you speak about us mislabeling you as a Fundamentalist. And yet you give many of us just a derogatory word. You ignore anything anyone has to say, or just conveniently don’t understand. Name calling you call it. Yet you are completely oblivious to the obvious. Not everyone that is against your point of view are Liberals. Political Liberals want a form of control just like the Political Conservatives. It is trading one form of control to another. I will say this YET again. I refuse to be controlled and told how to think from any earthly being. I refuse to agree with something just because of a political party, or religious affiliation. I look at the raw data, and come up with my own conclusions and give no second thoughts to how others think of it. Unless they come up their own thoughts. I am a believer in Liberal thought. Which is very much different from being a Political Liberal. You may not see the huge difference. Let me enlighten you on the subject.
Coming from a realistic point of view. The brain is actually a very, very sophisticated computer. Plain and simple, it all boils down to tiny electrical pulses that your brain tells your body what to do. The brain is a processor and a hard drive all in one. Programming has existed since the beginning of civilization. We made Operating Systems for our brains without really knowing what we were doing. This is not an actual literal act. Its more symbolic. But religion is the oldest Operating System on the planet. The act of brainwashing is not much of a difference from formating a hard drive and then installing Windows. Religion for the longest time defined how a person acted, how a person thought, how a person reasoned. Then people started to program themselves. They came up with their own Operating Systems. Religion is Windows 3.1 in the realm of consciousness. But since the beginning of civilization, our brains have evolved or upgraded. Compared to the bronze ages, we think faster, we are able to think more criticallly. The evolution Human beings has been going through cannot be seen because it is very gradual and not physical. So suddenly people started freeing themselves from something a man built a long long time ago. Something that was created as a form of control. The church was made in Paul’s image, not Gods.
So suddenly for no apparent reason (unless you look much deeper, and accept that the pattern can be seen, if only you just step backwards and actually look at the chain of events that has led us here. There is no such thing as random chaotic events. Everything no matter how big or small is apart of a much bigger plan we as a collective race cannot see at this time. Mainly because we focus too much on the small and not on the complete. We see the world how we want to see it, and not how it really is. My eyes open though, I see the world not how I think it should be, but how it truly is. And how every single little moment has lead us to the point we are right now. I see that we are going to become greater than we are now. This planet and the inhabitants that help the planet stay alive, will be apart of the universe once again.
See I see god not as a being that has a physical form, or even can be limited to a physical form. I see God as the energy that drives life, the universe, and everything. I see God as a being that cannot speak words, but he can speak to the minds and hearts of his creation. I see the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. Not as a literal event, but as a creation of a true utopia. One where prejudices no longer exist, we all accept each other as the same race of beings. When we become the true voice of this planet, when we become what God has designed for us to become. I believe when that happens we will find out that, there is more to the universe than what we thought. I believe that the day of judgment is not an actual literal event. But the next step we have to take, and the beginning of a New way of thought. I believe that we no longer will seek to find God in religion, where he is not. I believe we will see God in everything he created. Us, this planet, the universe and beyond. I came to this conclusion, not from someone on TV, not from someone on the Internet, not from a book. I came to this conclusion on my own, based on my own experiences and I came to this conclusion by actually looking and seeing the world in all of its beautiful, terrible glory. I am not afraid of the world as we know it ending. Because when that happens we will still be here. The world will be even more beautiful with all the terrible things not in it. It may be idealistic to say such a thing, but it is coming just not how everyone thinks it will be. I know my purpose is not to have any real part of the change, I know my purpose is to speak about this. About people thinking for themselves. But it is not my purpose to actually get you to think for yourselves. If you do because of the message I write, then you are just a head of the curve.
Not very many can tell you the purpose of their lives. Not everyone can tell you what every single event no matter how small shaped that person to what they are now, and what they will become, and what they will accomplish. I am done with theological debating. Because it is not my purpose to make you change your mind. Only to show the perversion that can be seen in God’s most perfect of creations, to tell everyone the end result of God’s Plan. Because his plan goes beyond the cycle of salvation. The end of that cycle is the beginning of another, God wants us to know and be comforted that his plan of salvation is coming to an end. We are to be comforted that there is something much greater planned for us, after judgment is made. What that is something God isn’t saying, he is just hinting at everyone that there will be something more. That we are almost ready to take the role in the universe we were meant to take. The greatest thing is, we can only guess what that greater role is. I am waiting in anticipation for that day, whether it comes in a drastic quick change. Or a slow and gradual change our ways of thought are going to change greatly.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Kay what is wrong with a more socialized government? What do you think a socialized government is? A socialized government wants whats best for the whole not just the few. If we adopted these so called “socialist” things into our society, it doesn’t mean that everyone will be paid by the government for doing nothing. This is something many Conservatives are pushing. Liberals are also wrong, a complete socialized government would be disastrous as it is written on paper.
We must evolve our way of thinking. Instead of being one for one, we must go back to one for all and all for one. Which is not how it is. You succeed when you look after your own self. You don’t succeed if you help others, if you are “Nice”. So going from Capitalist (Dog eat Dog, the most ambitious wins.) to Socialized (we think more towards the advancing all of us collectively in different efforts.)
So what would happen if we adopted more socialized thoughts and policies? We would be more tolerant towards other people, cultures, and religions. And we would still be encouraged to build businesses. But those businesses would not be made just to make a profit. Those businesses would be made to make a contribution towards the advancement of the human race.
(Sarcasm Alert.)I know these concepts of getting us away from greed is very “satanic”. Actually helping people and trying to advance collectively is against God. These are the things Conservatives are saying. Let’s keep to what broke our economy, and not actually try something that may work over time.
The world isn’t black and white. Not everyone who does not fully agree with conservative beliefs and ideas are liberals. You have yet to actually tell the difference between what a liberal actually is. There is more than just Conservative and Liberal. There are a multitude of ways of thought.
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kay-ms said
“I believe on that day Christianity will not be as it is now, but the way God wants it. Then we will move forward instead of staying still.”
I believe E, that you are too focused on “organized” Christianity. God is concerned about our individual hearts. If someone aligns themselves with the faulty views of “organized” Christianity that is between them and God. This problem with organized Christianity is nothing new… Jesus pointed out the many faults in “organized” Judaism often. His point was that it is about what is in our hearts and our personal relationship with God. Not the dogma, rules and regulations.
“Is the day of judgment coming within our lifetimes? Yes. ”
The Bible says that no one knows when that day is coming except God. I don’t know how you can answer “yes”.
I do find your concept, of how evolution and the Genesis account can be co-operative, interesting though.
” I agree God was in control of that whole thing, from the Pharisees seeing the truth and being afraid. To Jesus being tempted. Jesus saw this and just let himself be controlled as well. ”
Jesus always had the choice to walk away and not do God’s will. He was not forced or “controlled” to go to the cross.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Oh and you having an agenda? That is quite clear you are furthering Bill Keller’s agenda. You post his brand of crap, and argue against for it like it is gold. Bill Keller promotes special interest groups. He asks you to pray for these political things, he asks you to give money to these organizations known to be special intrest groups. Bill Keller is apart of the problem. It doesn’t matter if he says he is a man of God. He is either deceiving or is being deceived.Furthering his agenda makes you an accomplice.
And for the so-called global warming cover-up? There is a whole in a layer of gases that protect us from the suns UV radiation. This and an increase in carbon monoxide, that is released by burning fossil fuels. Has attributed to hotter summers, colder winters, more storm systems, more earthquakes. These are evidences of an inbalance. I mean even if what you say is true, which is extremely unlikely. This coverup is a lie, to discredit the development of alternative fuels, and vehicles that use less oil based products. We are going to suck this planet dry of all fossil fuels. And the oil companies and people that profit off of oil is trying to discredit something they will hurt their own personal profits or interests. I mean what is Alaska’s main import/export? It isn’t crab, it’s oil. So let’s say we find a renewable resource, we cut down greatly on our oil dependency. What happens to Alaska’s main import/export? What happens to Haliburton? Palin, and the oil companies DON’T want whats better for everyone. They want whats better for themselves.
Why don’t Conservatives see this?
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princessxxx said
hi guys, i’m enjoying your discussion here, i’m listening in as i work on my bill keller expose.
it’s a doozy.
ok, e_e, i don’t agree with everything you are saying, but, you are much closer to what i believe than most.
i think all health care and education should be free to all americans, because if you have a healthy educated population, you are going to have success and prosperity.
and people who have become hugely successful and rich OWE it to their country to give back more, as it is this country that made them able to become a success.
what any of this has to do with tiger woods bangin a lot of skanks has to do with anything but, what do i know, i bang skanks too.
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Enkill_Eridos said
You don’t get it. Jesus followed God’s will. He did it of his own free will. But Jesus listened to God, he did what God said. He had the opportunity not to but he knew what would happen if he did not follow the plan. He followed more with the thought of what the end result would have been. He wasn’t controlled in a human being sense of the word. He was given the knowledge to know what would happen if he didn’t follow the plan and if he did. Unlike the Prophets who are just another form of messenger, he was the message.
It does say in the bible only God knows when. But it also very clearly states the events that happen leading up to the final days of his plan of salvation. Do you think that all of Revelations was supposed to happen in a very short time frame? Because it is more likely that the four hoursemen of the Apocalypse stands in a more conceptual sense. That the book of Revelations was not talking fully of actual events. But events in consciousness.
Genesis 1:2 direct translation.
The country was wondering about the darkness and stared – the abyss and the spirit of God hovering over – the water:
It’s very clear to me that Moses was talking about a group of peoples (Israel) the darkness represents before actual consciousness, the ability to tell time. Not knowing right from wrong. Then one day people just knew. What if the whole Garden of Eden was not a physical place? But the Garden of Eden was where conscious thought was before we actually discovered the concepts of right and wrong?
So what if Revelations actually is happening now, everything in that book has already came to pass. Except for a few things. Because I pay attention, and know there is no such thing as random events. I don’t know the exact time the day of judgement will be. Or the exact date, but I believe it will start in 2012. It may just be an actual day, and something really huge happens. Or it may be a gradual thing. I don’t know how it will manifest, but I do believe it will happen. From the study of History and correlating History with scriptures. I believe that it will happen, and it is not going to be as horrible as many fear it to be.
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kay-ms said
P says: “i’m trying to give you the bigger picture, here.”
That’s my line… and I would be a complete hypocrite if I didn’t step back and view the big picture concerning Bill.
And when I do, I see a man who is truly devoted to God but at the same time has his “demons” of pride and ego.
When I first started watching his show a few years back (as a true cynic of all televangelists), I saw him get angry when people challenged him on air. I saw him get defensive, arrogant and unfairly use his power to hang up on people when they sometimes did give a good argument. To me, that is a form of dishonesty and I didn’t like that.
And more recently, I read his words in an interview he did with a local magazine some years ago and was shocked by the terminology he used in addressing homosexuality.. not any derogatory labels etc. but very graphic words that a man of God shouldn’t use. That really bothered me. More than your proof that he is a liar… EVERYONE lies. Or your “proof” that he is all about obtaining money for himself… I still see no proof of that. And his incorrect prophesy. Or even his dying his hair blond because God told him to. Which He could have.. or Bill could have misread God just as he said he did concerning the presidental prophecy. ( The idea behind him dying his hair is to appeal to the younger people who are the most vulnerable and who do tend to judge people more on appearances.. an extremely ignorant behaviour but unfortunately very common among the immature).
You, as a non believer, have a common misconception about Christians… that a true Christian is perfect… they do not sin, they do not have faults.. they are like Jesus. And that is a HUGE misconception. Our life long goal is to become like Jesus but God knows that no matter how hard we try it is impossible because we are human. And that is why we need Jesus. To redeem us and make us right with God.
But in view of these faults that Bill has I still don’t agree with your “big picture” assessment that Bill uses Jesus for the advancement of arrogance and ignorance.
Because I see the other things that a non-believer is obviously not capable of seeing or, more evidently, doesn’t want to see.
I see his actions… his devotion. And more specifically, his devotionals.
I will post here, the one from yesterday, which I think is a great example as most are…
Please note that I FAIL to see any “advancement of arrogance or ignorance” in this devotional and I could produce hundreds more just like it. If you do see any arrogance or ignorance, please point it out to me.
You all just do NOT want to give Bill any credit for the good things that he does… you all are against him because ALL you see is his finger pointing at you.. and you don’t like it.
Just as Bill’s devotional here explains… you all do not want to be held personally accountable.
Bill Keller’s devotional for Saturday Jan. 30th.
One of the biggest problems that we have in our society today is a lack of
personal accountability. Nobody is ever wrong, and when they do make
mistakes, there is ALWAYS an excuse. The danger that I see in this mindset
is that if there is one thing the Bible teaches, if there is one thing that
God will demand of each one of us, it is PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
I find it sad that in the recent exposure of corporate fraud, men like Ken
Lay (former CEO of Enron) and Bernie Ebbers (former CEO of WorldCom) were
paid hundreds of millions of dollars to oversee major corporations that they
claimed to know little about. What exactly were they paid all of that money
for if they had no idea what was going on? In our criminal justice system,
those charged hire gifted criminal lawyers to promote every excuse ever
known to man in order to ‘explain away” the criminal behavior of their
client. There are ‘experts” now that can give you an excuse for anything
that you do.
Other great examples of people refusing to be personally accountable are the
lawsuits in recent years against the tobacco industry, and now the fast food
industry. While there is little doubt that the tobacco industry lied and hid
the facts of how addictive cigarettes are, the FACT is, smoking is a
PERSONAL CHOICE. Science was, by far, my worst subject in school but even as
ungifted as I am in that area, common sense told me that putting something
in my mouth that was on fire, sucking the smoke into my body, could NOT be a
good thing.
My mother died over 4 years ago from emphezema. She smoke since she was 16.
She told me that it was HER CHOICE to smoke and she alone was responsible
for the condition that ultimately took her life. As easy as it would have
been for her to blame someone else, she took personal responsibility for her
addiction to cigarettes. Now people who are obese are suing the fast food
chains for making them fat! I have been to many fast food restaurants in my
life and have yet to see someone strapped in a chair being forced to eat a
double bacon cheeseburger, the greasy fries that have been super-sized, and
washing it all down with a 4-gallon drum of Coke! IT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE!
My friend, my point today is to drive home the fact that we can’t blame
anyone but ourselves for our actions. Blaming others is not new to the human
experience. In the Garden of Eden, after sinning, Adam blamed his sin on
‘that woman” but the reality is, God is NOT INTERESTED in your
excuses.Trying to blame Eve did not get Adam off the hook for HIS ACTIONS
and making excuses won’t get you off the hook for YOUR ACTIONS!
Men and women in prison can never overcome that experience until they humble
themselves before God and accept personal responsibility for what THEY DID!
In our life, we can never get beyond our sins until we are ready to admit
them to God, who by the way, when you read 1 John 1:9 is ready, “To not only
forgive you but cleanse you from all unrighteousness,” but YOU must take the
first step and take responsibility for your actions.
I love you and care about you so much. It breaks my heart as I go through
many of the emails that we receive here at Liveprayer every day. Many who
are looking for God in the midst of their challenges, will have a hard time
finding Him since they refuse to accept that THEY MADE POOR CHOICES. In many
cases, THEY MADE THE DECISIONS and are now dealing with the consequences.
HEAR THIS SPECIAL WORD FOR YOU TODAY. HEALING, BLESSINGS, AND THE FAVOR OF
GOD COMES WHEN WE GO TO HIM, ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT WE DID WITHOUT
BLAMING ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE. WE ALL SIN. ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR
OUR SIN IS HOW WE MOVE PAST OUR SIN AND ON TO VICTORY!!!
I will pray for you today. I pray that you will open your heart, be honest
with yourself and with God, and quit blaming anyone or anything other than
the choices you made. We all make bad choices and bad decisions in our life.
The key for you today is to not try to find excuses, not try to find someone
else to blame, but simply take responsibility for what you have done. It is
impossible to move past your problems until you do this. This is so
important because to accept Christ by faith, we must take personal
responsibility for our sins and ask Him to forgive us. We must be personally
accountable to HIM for our sins.
When this brief life is over and we stand before God, He is not going to be
interested in any excuses. On that day, God will hold each of us personally
responsible for our life. I pray today that you stop looking for ways to
excuse your choices and actions, but accept responsibility for what YOU have
done. God will honor you for taking personal responsibility for your
actions.
In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
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Enkill_Eridos said
It actually has nothing to do with Tiger Woods and skanks. And I believe we have moved out of a debate and into a discussion. Because I don’t actually feel like I am arguing..So let me enjoy this for now.
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kay-ms said
I have a comment in moderation…
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princessxxx said
e_e, i’m just goofing. i’m in a goofy kinda mood today.
oh, kay, i read that dullvotional also.
it’s the same dullvotioanl he wrote on 8/14/02 http://liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=1162 and 4/7/03 http://liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=1398.
keller saying over and over that he writes his dullvotional every morning…A LIE.
you would think that having all this extra time on his hands, now that he no longer has a tv show, he could sit down and write something new for a change.
my upcoming expose on keller is chock full of his lies.
his schemes on raising money.
his failures and how he doesn’t take responsibility for his own actions and words.
how he planned to indoctrinate children into his cult, ILLEGALLY,
it’s all there.
let me ask you a question kay.
if someone says they are going to do something and they don’t do it, is it a lie?
i mean, i could understand it happening occasionally, but what if someone said they ARE going to do something and they just don’t follow through, time and time again, would you consider them a liar, or just unreliable?
what if someone said they are going to do something,
and when it doesn’t happen they blame it on satan.
is that a legitimate excuse?
and i really love how you brush off keller’s prophecy from god as and honest mistake,
when he himself says that a prophet only has to be wrong once to be a false prophet.
and e_e is certainly spot on with this:
“Oh and you having an agenda? That is quite clear you are furthering Bill Keller’s agenda. You post his brand of crap, and argue against for it like it is gold. Bill Keller promotes special interest groups. He asks you to pray for these political things, he asks you to give money to these organizations known to be special intrest groups. Bill Keller is apart of the problem. It doesn’t matter if he says he is a man of God. He is either deceiving or is being deceived.Furthering his agenda makes you an accomplice.”
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Princessxxx said
https://tothewire.wordpress.com/2010/02/01/liveprayers-bill-keller-and-his-latest-epic-fail-the-jonah-project/
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kay-ms said
“and e_e is certainly spot on with this:
“Oh and you having an agenda? That is quite clear you are furthering Bill Keller’s agenda. You post his brand of crap, and argue against for it like it is gold. Bill Keller promotes special interest groups. He asks you to pray for these political things, he asks you to give money to these organizations known to be special intrest groups. Bill Keller is apart of the problem. It doesn’t matter if he says he is a man of God. He is either deceiving or is being deceived.Furthering his agenda makes you an accomplice.””
And ee is not “spot on”… he is so far off.. on most everything he’s posted lately.
The agenda I’m trying to further is to help people face the truth of God’s existence. Boy what a hard task that is!! With all the poisonous pride and ego that is so rampant in this world.
BTW… is ANYONE going to answer my question???
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enkill_eridos said
Kay, I only wrote my perceptions of what you are doing. You are pushing agendas. All in this to help people face the truth of God’s existence? How does that help people face the truth? No one wants to see the truth, you have expressed this. I’m only far off because I accept the same God’s existence as you. I just see things how they are, not how I want them to be. Or maybe because I am not pushing the basis for fundamentalism. (That the written scripture is it, every literal word God’s word, because he couldn’t possibly trying to teach humanity through concepts and symbolism.)
I am sorry, I think the very existence of fundamentalists are damaging to the spirit. Which is why we want to walk closer to God in the first place. Because there is an empty pit in our soul without it. For you to understand what I am trying to do you need to think with both hemispheres of your brain. Accept both the left-sided (Analytical, fact driven, etc.) and the Right-Sided (creativity, imagination, philosophic thinking, free thinking.)
So where am I wrong?
Oh and you have a huge misconception of how I think. I think a Christian should make an attempt to live like Christ. And if that person is an ordained minister that person should make an attempt to teach as Christ taught. Not exactly walking around teaching. But more with in mind exactly what he was teaching. His teachings were not just words in some book. I believe many Christians just do not realize that there is more to it than just believing in Christ, going to Church every Sunday, taking communion, there is more to it and no one cares. No one cares about living a fully spiritual fulfilling life. If they did there would be more people caring for the sick, homeless, children in this country. The children that are losing hope, and see that they are how they are not because of his parents habits (Which believe it or not has not been a reason higher than being displaced due to a storm, or loss of work in the past 3 or 4 years.) I don’t see ministries asking for money for these children and families. I don’t see a lot of ministries actually trying to help these families. We will donate and give money to Haiti, but we refuse to help an American who has went through a similar ordeal. Why? Why should we allow this kind of suffering to continue? Why should we allow kids to die of a disease that could have been cured, but because that family had no health care and couldn’t afford it. These children do exist, these situations do happen in America, as well as in other countries. What would Jesus say? The whole purpose of Christianity is to try to live like Christ. Knowing you cannot perfectly live as he did, but you can try. Jesus taught in more than words, but in actions as well. Jesus never pushed the issue, he said his peace answered questions and moved on. He taught against violence, and he taught against every single thing that is wrong in this world. Yet, all of that wrong is still around. Why? Because everyone hears, but no one listens. If you do not listen you cannot understand things as they are meant to be understood.
Please tell me where I am wrong? And Kay I answered your question…Maybe you need to reread my answer.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
What question, Kay? Is it the one where you seem to think I discount Jesus and what He did for us? Well, I think YOU are the one discounting Jesus and what He did for us. What I see Him doing for us is teaching us how to walk closer with God, just as Buddha did. I agree with E_E that fundamentalists do more harm than good for those seeking spiritual truth. I figure it’s because fundies are apparently too dense to grasp concepts in the first place and even more to realize that concepts are bogus anyway.
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kay-ms said
TBG.. please refer to comment 191 for the question.
“What question, Kay? Is it the one where you seem to think I discount Jesus and what He did for us? Well, I think YOU are the one discounting Jesus and what He did for us. What I see Him doing for us is teaching us how to walk closer with God, just as Buddha did.”
See, the problem with your beliefs (buddhist’s beliefs etc) is that you all seem to think that you are good enough to walk with God and be in His presence. God is perfect and without sin. He wants to be with us but it is not right because of His Holy and GOOD and sinless state and our SINFUL state. ( Imagine, I guess, Mother Teresa and Ted Bundy spending eternity together). We do not deserve to be in His presence. But God made it so that it can be possible thru His Son. And there are requirements that we must fullfill before that plan will cover us. We must ACKNOWLEGE our sins and we must accept Jesus’ sacrifice to redeem us and makes us right so that we can be in His presence.
TBG, you are not good enough to walk with God.. NONE of us are.
Now, what is your spiritual “truth” again?
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
answer to question from post 191, yes.
as for my spiritual “truth”, I have tried again and again to explain my perspective to you with little or no success. Basically it is that the universe is one big happening and everyone and everything is interconnected and mutually interdependent.
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Anonymous said
It could very well be that Ted Bundy is in heaven and Mother Teresa is in hell.
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kay-ms said
“answer to question from post 191, yes.”
Gee, thanks for answering… it’s ironic that I’ve asked you so many questions in the past where I’ve asked for a simple yes or no and couldn’t get it.
So, no elaboration on the fact that you are a sinner and need Jesus? Which you clearly disagree with. I’ve only asked this a hundred? times now.
And your obvious avoidance only proves my point that know your views are faulty yet you ignorantly and pridefully still hold onto them.
“as for my spiritual “truth”, I have tried again and again to explain my perspective to you with little or no success. Basically it is that the universe is one big happening and everyone and everything is interconnected and mutually interdependent.”
That’s it??
So what? How does that benefit us? What does it matter? Who cares? Where is the value in that “truth” that everything is interconnected?… Knowledge? It’s all about “knowledge and understanding”? And conveniently, we are not accountable based on this “truth”. No, you are right.. I do not understand.
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princessxxx said
TBG, this one is for you. if you refer back to kay’s comment #263…bill keller says, “Science was, by far, my worst subject in school.”
no doubt.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
Kay claims “So, no elaboration on the fact that you are a sinner and need Jesus?”
There you go twisting what I say AGAIN! I never said that. I agreed that IF Jesus came back today and proved somehow that the Gospels are true the way YOU and Bill Keller believe them, that I would happily admit I was wrong and worship Him forever (Jesus, not Bill Keller). That in no way makes it a FACT as you claim that I am a sinner who needs Jesus.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
What Kay has done reminds me of what I recently saw in a 2009 video by NonStampCollector on YouTube called The Great Debate. It’s a cartoon movie of several Theists onstage against one atheist. The first speaker is a Christian, and he quotes some scientists and atheists to present the case for a designer of the universe, but then immediately leaps to the conclusion that the designer is the God of the Christian Bible. Of course the other theists disagree (a Hindu, a Moslem, and one representing the ancient Egyptian deity Amun). When I saw that guy make such a wild leap of illogic, I immediately thought of Kay.
By the way, his Special Investigation: Evolution presents one of the most accurate representations I have ever seen of a typical creation versus evolution debate. This guy (NonStampCollector) really did his homework on this video. Notice how STUPID the creationists are. This video does NOT exaggerate that in any way, but presents typical creationist arguments and tactics. They really do no honor to Christ or to truth.
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kay-ms said
How can anyone who is so obviously confused and niave to believe what you do TBG (Buddhism ridiculousness) expect anyone to believe you about matters of science??
Because, you realize you STILL have not backed up your beliefs and your reasons for rejecting Jesus… STILL!! You are a fake and yet you expect people to take you for your word over and over.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
First, I do not expect anyone to take my word on spiritual matters. If they are ready to understand what I do, then they will find it for themselves. If not, then they won’t (obviously where you are at).
And for science, again nobody has to take my word for it. The facts are out there for everyone who is sincerely interested to check for themselves. Only those foolish enough to believe idiots such as Bill Keller who proclaim things as obviously wrongg as saying the earth is flat or similar nonsense in spite of all evidence to the contrary think otherwise. They (and him) are wrong, and that is NOT a matter of opinion. It is FACT!
I have NOT rejected Jesus. It is your OPINION that I have, and you apparently have such a high opinion of your opinion that you JUDGE everyone by the standards of your obviously limited intellect. I say obviously limited because you have repeatedly demonstrated a lack of ability to comprehend clearly expressed ideas, and you somehow TWIST their meanings incredibly WRONG more often than not.
Sorry you’re such an idiot, Kay. Sometimes I get the idea that you are basically a nice person (albeit misguided). Other times I get the impression that you are so small and petty that you feel a need to drag everyone and everything down to your level.
The universe doesn’t work like that, Kay, although if you think it does then it does, for YOU.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you have a good heart but a weak mind, Kay. I would rather that be the explanation for your behavior rather than the alternative, that you have a wicked heart and a strong mind that you use to twist things around to make things worse for everyone.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
the first of two recent comments posted; the second did not. (one comment in moderation for whatever reason)
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Enkill_Eridos said
Wow, she must really hate you. Or you must really hate her. Which of course is in violation of both the teachings of the gospels and The Middle Path. Both are things both of your faiths holds in highest regard.
My main driving force behind believing in what I believe the way I believe and how I believe comes from one simple sentence. Live with peace in your heart and you will know, understand, and value God. THIS IS THE MAIN REASON WHY I AM AGAINST THEOLOGICAL DEBATES. Both sides in this argument has moved from a discussion to blatent bad mouthing of each other.
Yes true fundamentalists are part of the problem, mainly because they are indoctrinated through fear. 90% of all people who are converted are done, through questionable methods. I mean the first thing these 90% hear is how they are going to hell. Fear and redemption. THAT is not the Word. That is not the Truth. It is the result of not accepting the truth. 10% are converted by hearing testimony of how becoming a Christian helps enrich lives. Not just physically but spiritually as well. That 10% hears of the hell dogma AFTER they are told the teachings of Christ.
Now tell me which one of the conversion techniques actually work? Well the 90% range has a high turnover rate, due to the fact that the people that go first into the result and not the reason. What does this mean? The 90% who are pressured into accepting Christ, many do not stay in Christianity. The 10%? Almost none of those converts leave Christianity. Why? Because the 10% are taught the Gospels first. They get to know Jesus through them. Then they are taught Romans, then Revelations. And the 10% usually grasp the teachings much better.
See but that’s off what I am trying to say.
TBG: Your main problem that I have seen is that you are discouraged by Kay not understanding where you are actually coming from. It’s not that she can’t understand, you are just not presenting it in a way that she can actually grasp. Try starting at the beginning. Since I don’t know the actual version of Buddhism you follow, I cannot say where the beginning actually is. The Buddhism of India has different concepts than say the Martial Buddhism or the Buddhism of the Tao. Or even the Shinto and other Buddhism that is practiced in Japan. They all have a beginning. Try starting there, and actually compare the two teachings. Jesus had a mixture of right sided thinking and left. Find where the common ground is, and show it.
Kay: Your main fault is that you cannot actually see beyond what has been taught to you probably your whole life. You accept the propaganda as being true and not actually wearing another mans proverbial shoes. The propaganda on what and how other beliefs is not true. I am not saying it is right, that is your decision. But right and wrong are really differences of perspectives. For instance the true statement that Hitler thought what he did was just and Godly. He thought he wasn’t doing anything wrong, that he was right and everyone else was wrong. Was he proven right? No because if he was we would all be speaking German right now. The point is the black and white mentality, doesn’t work. And calling something you don’t understand as being ridiculousness really isn’t a way for you to spread your message. It just shows your arrogance. And quite frankly I don’t think you actually are that close minded and arrogant. I don’t think you are a true fundamentalist, you just don’t really know how to really express your message. Because if you did you wouldn’t be adding the negative undertone you do. That negative undertone does sometimes “rub” people the wrong way.
This is what I believe Jesus tried to teach and obviously a very few people actually got it.
Have peace in your heart your mind, and others will follow. Have peace and show peace, and respect to others and you truly will know God. Organized Christianity does not follow this. They are too caught up on the end result if you do not believe in Jesus, that if you actually lived as Jesus did. Taught the message through word and action, as Jesus taught. Then you really wouldn’t have to get people worried about hell. Since it doesn’t really matter, since if you taught the message of Jesus and they understood and saw that you followed it. The person would think “Wow this person knows peace in his or her life. All because that person actually understands the message, maybe I should get to know that message.” It sounds like a corny after-school special, but if you are open to actually try it, get away from the fire and brimstone message that really is misunderstood. And get to the way Jesus lived, the way he taught. What he was actually trying to teach, and actually fully incorporate it into your life and live your life with that same mentality. Then you really would not have to use the misunderstood fire and brimstone message.
I am going to answer this question before it is asked. “Why do you think that the fire and brimstone message is misunderstood?” For one reason it doesn’t fully come from scripture. Since Revelations clearly states that the pit of fire is created during the day of judgment, Hell as it is taught doesn’t exist. But Hell does exist before the day of judgement. Hell resides in the 3rd Heaven, and is where most of the fallen angels are being held. They are there in eternal torment until that day. It is also taught that those that followed and will follow the fallen angels, that will too be their fate. Much different than the actual fire and brimstone message. But Jesus hardly talked about hell, he talked about the kingdom of heaven. How to get there, and how man should live in preparation of the day when they too will be in heaven. Live as Jesus lived, not without sin but absolute peace. And others will follow.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
No, I don’t hate Kay. I am rather frustrated by my repeated failures to adequately communicate what I believe to her. As you point out E_E, such failures may be from my not expressing my ideas clearly enough. The main point is though that Buddhism goes beyond ideas or concepts, focusing on direct experience instead of secondhand knowledge. I don’t know if it’s possible to dumb down what I’m trying to say to Kay anymore than what I’ve already tried, and my God the way that woman can misunderstand things! I am not the only one Kay has this effect on, as you and others well know. If I were, I would feel more upset by this situation. As it is, it’s not a big deal to me. I can’t speak for her, but as you and others have pointed out, she isn’t exactly a shining light for Christ the way she presents herself (although I really DO want to believe she means well).
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
As is frequently the case, there is a third alternative to kay’s behavior. As E_E points out, she has been LIED to her whole life and she has swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker. So in other words, she MAY have a good heart AND a strong mind. However, garbage in, garbage out. It’s up to Kay to open her mind to truth if she’s willing to accept it, rather than prejudge everything according to the filters she has set up.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
FYI The version of Buddhism that I most identify with is early Chinese zen from about 700 AD to 1000 AD. I also like the teachings of the Hindu saint Ramana Maharshi, a form of Advaita Vedanta. I am The Bicycling Guitarist. I didn’t realize when I started thirty years ago some of the reasons I do this, but the past few years I have realized why more and more.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Not really my point in trying to move this from a argument to a discussion. I was actually referring to the propaganda taught by many different Christian faiths about other religions. Most of it is misinformation, either based on something someone made up or some other reason.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
I agree with E_E about you not being a typical fundamentalist, Kay. From questions you’ve asked, it seems you are an honest seeker of truth who is genuinely concerned for the welfare of others. Both of these are traits I respect greatly even if I don’t always show it by my own behavior. I am SO human! Again, my apologies for insults I have hurled. You are a blessing to me.
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
about most of what some Christian denominations teach about other faiths being misinformation: AMEN! It’s the same with the fundie attack on evolution. IF it were the way THEY describe it, of course it’s ridiculous and wrong. They just don’t understand…sigh
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The Bicycling Guitarist said
oh and as for the reasons I am The Bicycling Guitarist…there IS no point to it! It is completely purposeless! It is not a means to an end but an end in itself! For me, it is a meditation in motion.
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princessxxx said
hey you guys, i couldn’t sleep last night so i watched a movie called “inherit the wind” about a trial, darwin vs the bible, what a great movie. spencer tracy and frederic march. it reminded me of this blog. funny thing, this movie was made in 1960, 50 years ago and this argument is still going on today..
if anyone hasn’t seen this movie,……. netflix.
somebody, check and see if dorian is breathing
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kay-ms said
Thanks for the movie suggestion.. it sounds intersting…I’ll watch it.
It’s funny that you mention movies… I just watched 2 movies that I really liked.. well one that I really liked and one that got my anti-liberal feathers ruffled. The two movies are “Thirteen Days” and “Doubt”.
I found them both very interesting but for different reasons. JFK’s fight to prevent war during the Cuban missile crisis.. his democratic approach, I liked very much… and the progressive liberal agend of the movie “Doubt” has got me all riled up. (Apparently it’s okay for a priest to molest a 12 year old boy if he “loves” him. That’s clearly liberal hollywood’s stance. ) I’ll write more later for anyone who’s interested.
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kay-ms said
TBG, Bill never said he believed that the earth was flat… and you say I twist words? And you STILL haven’t explained why you have rejected what Jesus has done for you.
And… I’m still waiting for an apology for you calling me a stupid B*** until then I’m not going to acknowledge any other “apologies”.
I believe that you do hate me and any other person (particularly women) who disagree with you. Sorry, but that is what I believe.
EE, I know that calling another’s beliefs “ridiculous” doesn’t look good but in actuallity, TBG has not shown how it is not ridiculous. I have asked questions and all I get back now is something to the effect that I am the one with the problem if I don’t understand. That everthing is interconnected … yeah, I get that.. but how that is important is what I don’t get… and if we are all connected and are supposed to let go of our ego.. then why does TBG identify himself as the Bicycling Guitarist… that makes him distinct and apart of everything… see, his theology keeps contradicting itself. that is why I call it ridiculousness… I’m waiting for him to prove otherwise.
And I do have an open mind to other beliefs, I have just chosen to reject them. Rejecting other beliefs does not mean that a person has a closed mind… that is a common liberal misconception.
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Enkill_Eridos said
And just because a person does not have a Conservative point of view 99% of the time does not make them a liberal. Liberals are winey, they want to take away freedoms, they want to make themselves better in a political position. They do the same as Conservatives and wipe their butts with the constitution. I have said this many times before. I am not a liberal. I don’t have a high view for either extreme of the political spectrum.
I never said you are close-minded, what I did say was that you reject others beliefs without actually trying to understand that persons beliefs. As I only have a rudimentary understanding of one form of Buddhism, I am not qualified to actually clarify for TBG. Since I don’t really know for sure which one he follows. As all the Buddhist sects do not actually have dogma or theology that conflicts with Christianity. Buddhism isn’t really a religion in the literal definition of the word religion.
TBG has never actually denied what Jesus has done for him. I know that much, since I don’t know which version of Buddhism he practices, I can accurately say that he has not actually tried to be clear.
Now to clarify Kay, you really didn’t help him understand actually what needs to be clarified.
From my point of view everything is interconnected, let me explain. From the beginning there was One God. Throughout history the aspects of this One God was changed into many. For thousands of years the Hebrews taught their God was the true God. They also taught that the Gentiles (racial slur for non-jews) was not created by their God. Jesus came and showed that there is only One God and he created mankind, not just the Jews. I actually see the line in Exodus when God told Moses his name as proof of this. I don’t think the words of the bible are the words of God. I believe the messages the point never actually stated is the word of God. I believe that it doesn’t matter about the words, that point is always there from Hebrew, to English and in between. I feel there is much too much focus on the physical words and not on the main focal point each book tried to portray. And I saw the same pattern in the Lotus Sutra, The Quran, and others. There are some that actually try to deceive that the Word of God is limited just to the Bible. But God created the human race, he separated us from the animals by giving us cognitive thought. We are able to look for the why and how. He created one race. He didn’t create different races based on ethniticity. He gave humanity a way to adapt to almost any environment found on earth. It doesn’t matter where we came from, we are all the same on the inside. So if we are all one race, doesn’t it make sense that One all-powerful all-knowing God tried to show humanity its plan? And humanity misunderstood and created Gods out of the different aspects of one? If this isn’t true then why does the concept of a World Tree constantly pop-up in every religion? Before Christianity it had a symbol, that symbol was a cross. It kind of makes the crucifixion make a little more sense. Whether or not the historical figure Jesus of Nazareth was actually crucified on a cross or not does not matter. It is the symbolism that act actually portrays. Jesus died to save the world from sin. As the cross was before Christianity the symbol of the world. (A circle with a cross inside most commonly represented the world tree. it basically was taught this is what gave the directions and split the world’s point of view. East-West, North-South.) Keep in mind that I am talking about religions before God sent a more clear message, that very few actually accept and incorporate into their lives. This includes the ones that say they accept the message. But why would you just want to get into heaven? Why end your walk with God there? Jesus very clearly showed the way to walk closer to God, hardly any follow it.
I never said rejecting other beliefs is close minded. I said rejecting other beliefs without actually understanding those beliefs are. There is a difference.
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dorian said
thanks, P!hello adkob family, still breathing the foggy air here in s.f. still with the crappy pda so nt much posting but reading anyway. trying to make money. good to be home, though. hasta la pasta!
e_e, i’m trying to make time to visit the san jose museum this week-end.s/b interesting.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Send me some pictures.
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horsservice said
@Kay
It seems that I am way behind my “answer to Kay” shedule, time to catch up^^
“This is what you said in comment 185”
I don’t see where you got this
“You: “As I stated before, logic is on neither side. But to avoid unnecessary “where does it come from”s, I would say that no-God has a slightly advantage.”
“neither” means “no”… is that what you meant?”
I meant that logic is on no side: no side can argue it has logic on its side.
“Eternal is not logical because there is no beginning.”
Then, its only illogical in your view.
“The point I am alluding to is that there are only two choices… eternal universe or a God who created the universe.”
No, there are more choices. Like the universe started itself. (by a huge random fluctuation of the quantum background)
“I think you are trying to confuse things.”
No, I am not. But I am not a physicist, and even good physicists have trouble dealing with this subjects.
“And in science there must be a beginning. Cause and effect.”
No, not since quantum mechanics, 80 years ago. Effects can happen without causes. It’s not really a basis of science. But cause and effect works very well for every science that operates at our scale, like geology for example.
“You argue that but don’t come up with anything solid to back it up except that we are “beginning” (ironically) to understand.”
Yes, because you argued that Science couldn’t even “begin” to explain our existence. This was, I remember you, the initial sentence that started this point.
I don’t propose an explanation, because science doesn’t propose anything solid yet. It’s just a beginning.
“You said: “But you see, when you want to go deep in things, you will find that obviousness and common sense are not so obvious and seem paradoxal at the beginning.”
sorry, that doesn’t explain anything. And, even worse, you are starting to sound like a buhhdist… then you’ll REALLY not be making any sense.”
This explains why it’s so difficult to make people understand why common sense is not reliable in things that the human mind is not instinctly made to understand.
“The Buddhists and the atheists are to great examples of man futily and stubbornly trying to explain away the obvious… a Supreme Being.”
The Buddhists can explain by with a Supreme Being, to my experience.
“Which is the most logical answer.”
1) Depends on the point of view
2) No, a Supreme Being doesn’t makes more sense: where does HE comes from?
“You keep trying to prove that it isn’t the most logical answer but you cannot do it.”
Or, you don’t want to accept it. I’m going to repeat myself, but I find the “Supreme Being” option absolutely possible. But there’s no logical arguments that supports one side or the other.
“Oh, and your other answer was to “just wait 300 years or so”. That is the crutch that athiests use… “time can eventually explain everything”.”
I wrote this to tell you to wait 300 years until scientists get an answer to this question. Nothing to do with what you are talking about.
“The theory of evolution is nothing but using the argument that anything is possible given enough time.”
1) No.
2) Practically anything is possible given enough time and space. Therefore, anything more probable than “a monkey typing random keys on a computer writing all Shakespeare plays” can and will happen. Everything else is considered impossible.(like going through walls. Possible in theory)
“Well, if that is the case, then God is possible also.”
Yes.
“So, if God’s enemy makes up a religion that is in reality worshiping him.. that religion is true? How do we know which are the “right” ones and which aren’t?”
How is it possible that God could have an enemy? And what use would it be to this enemy that we worship him rather than God? If this religion involves loving everyone and praying to Zyblgi instead of God, would it really be worshipping someone else?
Religions based on killing people, not tolerating difference, making people suffer, etc… Are the bad ones. That’s what the whole “think by yourself” stuff is all about.
And furthermore, a religion based on worshipping the enemy of God would still be right in some ways: it would just be worshipping the wrong person. For me, for example, satanists are just like christians on the god-belief point of view: they’re both based on the Bible. For me, both wrong.
“All religions cannot be true. It’s a great theory; wishful thinking in the name of peace and salvation for everyone but it just cannot be true in an imperfect world. There IS such a thing as false religions contrary to the poison the liberals are trying to force on the world.”
Give arguments. Here you are just saying that there are false religions. I would like to know why. And why ALL the others religions are wrong. Since they all have a lot of things in common.
“Liberals do not want to acknowledge that evil exists.”
Wrong. You consider me as a “liberal”, and I believe that evil exists. But for me it’s not an anthropomorphic representation, like Satan.
“And they just completely want to ignore the fact that humans can be evil and do evil things.”
Oh yeah? To me, it looks like they find at least Bill Keller evil.
“That they are driven by their egos. And one of the results is creating a “religion” where they themselves are worshiped and put on a pedestal that they already have themselves on.”
And nothing less? Daaaang… Should I worship dorian, then? What’s the correct word to adress a Goddess?:p
Couldn’t you recognize that atheists are not necessarly driven by their egos, that they maybe thought a bit about it?
“But according to the liberal minded, anti-Christian people out there… these people apparently do not exist.”
Give example of us “liberals” saying that there’s noone anti-christians. A lot of people are very angry today against christians. Well, most of them have reasons to do so. (Which doesn’t mean that they are right, by the way)
By the way, we are going away from the subject, here. I was saying that the religion of the Bible couldn’t be the only one true.
“That is just more wishful thinking combined with extreme ignorance. Or worse; people who have purposefully made themselves true enemies of God.
For the wishful, ignorant ones who live in a make believe world where nothing bad happens, they need to understand that ignorning the problem won’t make it go away or not exist. And denying the truth only strengthens these false religions and cults.”
There are a lot of bad things happening today in the world, one of them being fundamentalist christianity. Now back to the subject?
“Hors, could you please remind me of which questions you want me to answer?”
Comment 24, completed by comments 36 and 47 notably.
“I promise to answer them and then you can address my question that “surprisingly” no one wants to answer…
If Jesus came back today, proving that the Bible is true, could you worship Him?”
I’ve already answered that: 1) All the Bible cannot be true
2) I would worship Him and follow his guidance. Though I would think about it and see if what Jesus says is good is really good or it’s a test.
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kay~ms said
Hors said:
“Oh yeah? To me, it looks like they find at least Bill Keller evil.”
Bill’s devotional for today…
While as a nation, we have a right and responsibility to defend ourselves from those who
would like to destroy us, as individuals, God has called us to pray for our enemies. This
Devotional is NOT about nations, but about each of us as individuals. There are people in
this world that don’t even know you, but would still like to kill you and kill your
family. While our nation does its best to defend us from these people, as individuals, we
need to take a few moments today and pray for them. Pray for Osama Bin Laden. Pray for
those who don’t like you. The fact is, God sent Jesus to die on the cross for them as
much as He did for you and I. The same free gift of everlasting life that we have
accepted by faith, is available to them.
There was once a man named Saul of Tarsus. To the early Christians he was an evil man. He
sought to kill those who followed Jesus Christ. One day on the road to Damascus, God
visited Saul. Saul of Tarsus became Paul, one of the most powerful Christians that ever
lived. A man God used to write a good portion of the New Testament and plant many of the
early churches that still exist today. I have no doubt that those in the early church
followed the example of Jesus and PRAYED FOR SAUL!!! Be like Jesus, and pray for your
enemies.
I am about to give you a quick spiritual test. What is your attitude towards your
enemies? We all have those people in our life that we just can’t get along with. We all
have those people in our life that don’t like us. We all have those people in our life
that do not wish us well. What is your attitude towards those people? It is easy to like
your friends, but how do you feel about those who do not like you? On the ladder of
spiritual maturity, this is a very big rung. How we feel about and deal with those people
in our life that are NOT our friends, is a major indicator of our spiritual growth and
maturity.
Of course, our perfect example in this area is Jesus. How did He handle those who were
involved in his death? He loved them, He forgave them, and He prayed for them. This
becomes the standard that we must work to achieve in this area. We must love those who
hate us. We must forgive those who mean to do us harm. We must pray for those who are out
to get us. You see, the Bible says the Lord will fight for us, that the “battle is
the Lord’s.” The reason God fights for us is that we can get so weary, so worn out,
that we become ineffective for God. We become so distracted in fighting those who oppose
us, we lose sight of our mission which is to serve and glorify Him with our lives.
I realize today that you have people in your life that wish only the worst upon you. Love
those people today, pray for them. Anyone that has allowed bitterness to take such hold
on their life needs our prayers. Those who allow bitterness and hatred to creep into
their life are to be pitied. They are hurting themselves, so out of that hurt, lash out
on those around them. Pray for them. Pray the Lord will grant them peace. Pray the Lord
will take the hatred and bitterness from them and replace it with peace and joy. Love
them.
How? In our own strength, it is NOT POSSIBLE to love, or pray for our enemies. That is
when we need to tap into the strength only God can give us. In our own strength, it is
virtually impossible to love and pray for our enemies. But when we let God take over,
when we call upon His strength, it is possible. AND THIS IS WHAT THE LORD IS CALLING YOU
TO DO TODAY!! Make a list right now of everyone in your life that means you harm. Make a
list of your enemies. My suggestion is that you call each one, or meet with each one and
tell them you love them, forgive them, and are praying for them. At least sit down each
morning, and pray for them. THIS IS WHAT GOD IS CALLING YOU TO DO TODAY!!!!
I love you and care about you so much. I realize that these are difficult words to hear,
and even more difficult to put into action. Trust me, there is a key of freedom attached
with what I am telling you today. A freedom that you cannot begin to understand. This is
a test, a spiritual test. I will pray for you today that you pass it with flying colors.
It is no accident that you are reading these words today. God is clearly speaking to you.
Take a few minutes right now, and pray for all of those in your life that are not your
friends, that are against you. Pray for their souls, and then pray the Lord will bless
them and open their hearts to His love. God is calling you today to rise above the
day-to-day emotions of life. Realize that the wars we fight are not of this earth, not of
flesh and blood, but are spiritual. Pray for your enemies today, and be like Jesus!!!
In His love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller
Yeah… what an “evil, evil” man.
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kay~ms said
I have a comment in moderation.
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Enkill_Eridos said
Only princess has called Bill Keller evil. I personally think that Bill is a pastor to make money. That I think should not be allowed. But also Christianity was made by men, not God so its not perfect. (If it was made by God, I feel much of the hierarchy in Churches and the organized Christianity wouldn’t exist.) I never said he was evil, but what has his ministry ever done but cause controversy? Bill Keller Ministries have done very little for the community that it resides in. Instead he posts messages not based on fact. Like does Obama fulfill some Muslim prophecy. Or how about Bill Keller bashing the character of President Barrack Obama. Because his father was Muslim.
These are not qualities Jesus taught about. He speaks about how the Bible is the infalliable word of god, yet he refuses to accept that some of the crap he says does not coincide with God at all. I never said he was evil, just not a good pastor.
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