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news and things sacred and irreverent put together by opinionated people.

Caveman’s Response to Fox News Post by Tothewire

Posted by lawman2 on December 7, 2008

I don’t think this picture needs any explanation…it’s simple enough even a caveman gets it.

What a bunch of bullshit to claim abortion is about a fight to protect women’s right to control their bodies and reproductive rights…has anyone here heard of BIRTH CONTROL?

Tothewire earlier posted Fox News War On Planned Parenthood = Fox News War On Women

If you really want to know a caveman’s thoughts on abortion I wrote an earlier post here   A Caveman’s View on Abortion

You can read more caveman’s perspectives from lawman Just A Caveman


164 Responses to “Caveman’s Response to Fox News Post by Tothewire”

  1. tothewire said

    Real mature there lawman


  2. Lawman2 said

    i love you baby, but on this one i feel strongly you are wrong.


  3. Lawman2 said

    mature?you know i like peter pan…hehehe


  4. Kaylie said

    Which form of birth controll is 100% effective, pray tell? I seem to have missed its announcment.


  5. kathy (kayms91) said



  6. kathy (kayms91) said

    Yes, it’s called ABSTINENCE. If you don’t want to take the 2 or 3% chance to get pregnant then don’t have sex! And if a pregnancy still occurs then do the right thing… don’t kill your baby just to spare yourself of the inconveinience.

    Great picture Lawman…. Liberal Compassion… what a joke that is..

    Any Liberal who supports late term abortions FOR WHAT EVER REASON has compassion only for themselves… that’s their true motivation!! THEIR RIGHTS above ALL ELSE!


  7. Lawman2 said

    i agree with you kay


  8. Rj said

    This is stupid. No one supports late term abortions. The rare occurrence is for health reasons and conservatives go around using this as yet another scare tactic as if women are waiting until near delivery time to “chicken out” of giving birth. Spare me. And if someone isn’t concerned about their OWN health, versus an unborn…then those of you that support whack theories that come out of evolutionary psychology/biology, should have a major problem with the notion of self-preservation.


  9. tothewire said

    Rj! Good to read you again (as lawman would say!)

    Of course no one supports late term abortions,UNLESS IT IS TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER…lawman was just being an ass to post this. He is always accusing ‘the’ church of bending the truth by exploiting things JUST like this picture to do so…and yet here he is doing the same thing to make his anti-abortion case.


  10. kathy (kayms91) said

    Rj, you live in a dream world if you think late term abortions are ‘rare’ and only occur for ‘health’ reasons and what ‘health’ reasons? That is a very vague statement and certainly doesn’t justify murdering a living baby. And even if the mother’s life is at risk… why is it then ok to kill the child?

    I found this on an abortion clinic website…

    At Women’s Health Care Services, we specialize in “late” abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion.

    Legalized abortion allows late term viable babies to be killed and don’t forget were talking about partial birth abortions here also. These abortion clinics are businesses… it’s disgusting that individuals (business owners) make the decision as to whether a baby is ‘viable’ or not… that there is no “set point in time” is a joke… and what is being said between the lines is “we can do this for you”…. ‘rare’…ya right. And Obama is going to make it even easier for these barbaric abortions to occur. NOW paid him well to ensure it.

    With this going on, anyone who supports legalized abortion supports late term abortions!! You can’t have it both ways… babies that ARE viable ARE being murdered in horrible ways.

    Your stance is no different than that of many of the people who lived in Germany during WWII who didn’t ‘support’ the jews being killed but looked the other way because Hitler was ‘saving’ Germany.


  11. Rj said


    Didn’t I already settle for you labeling me a murderer? You haven’t gotten past that yet?? LMAO.

    I don’t live in a dream world, but if I were a Christian, according to you, I would…LOL

    MY statement is vague??? and you found ONE clinic…LMFAO!!!!

    Late term, partial birth….potato, potahto…I thought this was Burger King and I CAN have it my way…as long as you’re not standing in it!!!!

    Oh no, how you’re comparing me to Hitler…next it will be Castro…and then Malcolm X….!!! ROFLMFBAO!!


  12. Rj said

    Hi lawman and tothewire. engaging kathy is entertaining, however it distracts me from my posts…


  13. Rj said

    is she kathy, or kay?


  14. obama the antichrist said

    Alright baby murdere…..Rj…….um the only way that i would allow abortion if the mother and/or the baby would die. But any average jane who got too drunk and was banged by average joe and she got pregnant well she is shit outta luck (pardon my language but i love that term) she made her bed now she must lie in it which is most abortion cases so yeah i think abortion is wrong


  15. Lawman2 said

    hey there ota!this we agree on abortion is = to murder and should be handled as such.i think both parties should be held accountable IF both parties man and woman agreed to ending the life of their UNBORN child.i don’t say this lightly nor out of some religious rhetoric,but science leads me to this fact.i have the evidence laid out in my caveman’s view on abortion.i do feel bad for the women who in ignorance buy into the idea that only religious fanatics are anti-abortion and that there is no science to back up life begins at conception.there is a butt load of science that says life does begin at conception!would we say life for a butterfly only begins when they fly away from the cocoon?that butterfly may have just become a butterfly but life for it began the moment it started to evolve.at conception a life starts to evolve IMEDIATELY after conception.real science evidence goes quite a bit deeper than these examples of course.i have some of my research on it listed on the post i mentioned.

    but so help me god i do love these sexy liberal women!hehehe


  16. Abortion at the third trimester is against the law unless there is significant risk to the mother’s well being. But I do not believe life begins at conception, if you think that than you probably think that firing off a couple of knuckle children is murder. Which would make you catholic and you need to go into psychatric evaluation. j/k I think I am going to finish my post I started so long ago on this subject. But Lawman on your scientific evidence is not refutable since you neglected to say that there are scientists who also claim there is scientific evidence life does not begin at conception. That the zygote process (conception) Is an automated response and does not support that it is alive. The scientific field is split on this subject as well. I would also like to point out the women’s clinic you cited Kathy is under investigation by the Florida Department of Health since the owner has had a suspension of his license do practice medicine due to the fact he did an illegal late abortion as well as prescribed medication illegally. His clinics in Tampa and Orlando should be shut down and like I said are being investigated. Just because a minority of doctors that do provide abortions do illegal abortions does not mean all of them do. If you do not have the foresight to make sure your doctor abortion or otherwise has a clean medical history meaning no suspensions or investigations then I would suggest practice abstence or get a surgery to make sure you cannot bring stupidity into our already stunted gene pool.


  17. Rj said

    ooooh, baby murderer…I’m sooo offended!!! You shouldn’t be the judge of whether someone was drunk and got pregnant or raped and got pregnant. Unwanted is unwanted. You know, as I lay awake at night, tossing and turning about this abortion issue (please stop me, i’m just too funny)…I notice how conservatives frame their issues so that the terminology is misrepresented…I found an excellent post which should (should, but I know how you work) put all your crap to rest…and E_E..I was just about to mention to lawman about his science…like science is irrefutable or something…LOL

    Anyway here it is.


  18. Rj said

    Lawman, you’re making me barf now…and hate science…


  19. Enkill_Eridos said

    Alright first night back and I lead the Lawman bashing. 😀 I need a good debate awaiting for Lawman’s response.


  20. tothewire said

    lol E_E I loved your post! AND WE MISSED YOU!!!!


  21. kathy (kayms91) said

    Wow Rj… just a little bit too defensive? And how in the world do you manage to type while LMARFL..or whatever your ass off? That’s pretty good… lot’s of practice huh? You seem to think every serious issue is funny.. a form of denial is obviously the case. And I didn’t compare you to Hitler… please try reading it again. That you think this issue is funny is very strange, or extremely childish. You are demonstrating some of the worst ignorance I’ve ever seen. I think you have seen the pictures and know what is involved – I believe you have said so.. so you are CLEARLY choosing to IGNORE these things. You have eluded to the ignorance in others and how harmful it is and here you are guilty of it yourself. You are COMPLETELY IGNORANT of the physical suffering of another INNOCENT person. How can Liberals justify this?? When they claim to be so compassionate????? Because it’s just a front… pretend like you are a caring person when in reality YOU ONLY CARE ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR RIGHTS!!!! Sociopaths do it all the time… and yes…I AM comparing you to a sociopath!

    OTA… your reason for being against abortion is based on biased notions and misconceptions and just plain ignorance… and also that’s real easy for you ( a man ) to say!!! The WOMAN is *** out of luck and the man can just be on his merry way – he didn’t do anything wrong… WOW… As a Christian I would have though you would have had a better view than that for sure.

    EE… I’m going to go back to the beating heart defense… LEGAL abortions are stoppig a beating heart… if you don’t think that a beating heart constitutes life then maybe you ( and others ) need an evaluation…

    And how sad and pathetic is this country that we KNOW that this clinic is performing illegal abortions and yet it still is in operation! That I sited one clinic doesn’t mean there aren’t others out there (Rj)… it’s the nature of the beast / business… if you understand the business world at all you know that that clinic is more than likely a good example of what is going on ALL THE TIME… Abortions clinics and the people who work in them are the most hideous of hideous…to defend it is bad enough but to make money on this is beyond comprehension. Now Rj.. don’t go running off now to start working in a clinic…

    And EE, do you actually think a woman who WANTS to abort her late term baby cares if the ‘doctor’ or clinic is under investigation for doing so??


  22. kathy (kayms91) said

    And Lawman… ” so help you ” Who? Make up your mind!!!


  23. Lawman2 said

    what did i do this time??


  24. Lawman2 said

    make up who’s mind?what the hell?damn i hate it when you women do this crap!i don’t have a clue what the hell you are going on about kay!what did i say that you disagree with this time?


  25. kathy (kayms91) said

    “but so help me god i do love these sexy liberal women!hehehe”

    If you don’t believe in God why do you keep talking to Him?


  26. Lawman2 said

    well sorry about that.i guess i should have said well so help me to tothewires god then.


  27. Fetus is a baby said

    This is crazy. Obama is wrong. Nobody should have to right to kill a child. A fetus is a child. It has a heart and hands and feet and eventually all the same organs, The child has a heartbeat by the third weeek. To have an abortion is to murder a child. You have sex girl gets pregnate, that was no accident. It dont matter how many condoms you used or if you was on the pill. if yu get pregnate that was no accident. Why? Because remeber the primary function of sex is to reproduce. if you get pregnate in the act of sex that was no accident. That was what was supposeed to happen. Now if you want to call it a mistake thats fine but what i dont understand is why make the child pay be the penalty of death?


  28. Lawman2 said

    i agree with you fetus is a baby!


  29. LMARFL!!!!111 said

    I ran across this picture, searching for something to use in my Pro-life power point for class. It’s ridiculously absurd targeting ALL liberals with a HUGE generalization. I’ll share some of my research with you: 1% yes ONE PERCENT of abortions are induced in the third tri which is pretty damn rare (kathy). A LOT of liberals are opposed to third tri abortions, including myself, and so are many pro-choice activists.

    Beyond the embarassingly ignorant picture(I’m embarassed for YOU lawman):

    KATHY!: I find it amusingly dense of you to say: “Any Liberal who supports late term abortions FOR WHAT EVER REASON has compassion only for themselves…” does that mean that CONSERVATIVES are exempt from that rule?

    and yes, you CAN have it both ways. There is a VAST difference between a zygote and a third-tri baby. many women NATURALLY lose babies at that early stage (and later stages) anyway.


  30. dorian9 said

    thank you LMARFL for coming to our blog. you point to facts that are conveniently denied by the self-righteous who have a habit of casting judgment and sweeping generalizations.


  31. kay~ms said

    Hi Lmarf… yes, I am generalizing because, as it stands now, it all boils down to if you support or oppose abortion rights, period. You and “a lot” of other liberals may be against late term abortions “only 1 percent” ( which equals to thousands of lives being murdered but “rare” and “1 percent” sound better )….. you noble, pro choice liberals may be against those, but when you support abortion rights you ARE supporting and allowing these “rare” abortions to happen… but your voices are loud and clear… it’s an acceptable trade off… (these babies being MURDERED in the most horrific ways)… in order to preserve a woman’s “right” to control “her” own body. That “right” to a quick fix at the expense of another human being.

    That picture COULDN’T BE MORE ACCURATE!! Your views are warped and distorted…

    … and Dorian.. you never fail to come thru with your accusations of judgement when someone disagrees with liberal views… sorry, I had to point that out… I keep having to reminding you that disagreeing shouldn’t be considered judgemental, self righteous and intolerant… THESE are “sweeping generalizations”… and what else?? Reverse ignorance…

    Although, I do get judgemental when it comes to this subject… judgements are not always wrong… a society can’t succesfully survive in a world where people never make judgements. That’s just another poisonous liberal “doctrine”. The problem is not in disagreeing… it’s in the behaviour and beliefs resulting from the disagreements… but this idea doesn’t fit into the liberal’s agenda…. which ultimately comes down to forcing society to accept anything and everything that is anti Christian and anti Biblical.

    And the ultimate irony in liberal doctrine??.. they promote intolerance of “intolerance”… how hypocritical!!!

    So, Lmarf… right now you CANNOT have it both ways… abortion “rights” as it stands now, includes the “right” to kill a late term BABY!

    And please don’t be ignorant about my liberal statements… of course a conservative is not “exempt” if they are pro choice. Most liberals are pro choice… most conservatives are pro life.


  32. dorian9 said

    k – watch your contradictions, you’re losing everybody – all that’s clear is your anger and you’re calling names again.

    intolerance of intolerance is not a bad thing in my book.
    but Jesus was the most tolerant of all wasn’t he? and you know he was liberal minded. it is written.

    i shook my tambourine and sang in worship at a christian evangelical church yesterday, kay. i thought about you.


  33. kay~ms said

    Dorian… you’ve called me and other pro life people “self righteous” right? isn’t that name calling? Again, disagreeing with another’s view does not make a person “self righteous”, intolerant or judgemental. but like I’ve said before.. I am judgemental when it comes to this subject… I have judged that pro choice people are insensitive and selfish for the most part. I acknowledge that contradiction. Are there any other contradictions? can you point them out for me? And name calling?? Where?

    And liberals are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with liberal views… as demonstrated here by your accusations in comment #30 by calling me selfrighteous. That IS hypocritical… the problem lies in the liberal’s misconception of what intolerance is…. disagreeing does not equal intolerance!

    All I am doing is stating my view that abortion is wrong… and you keep accusing me of being self righteous etc… I’m still trying to understand how you, along with the majority of liberals, arrive at that conclusion.


  34. Umm Kay what have you been smoking and can you give me some? That picture is highly inaccurate. Even though it was from a Opinion column. It is true a majority of pro-choice abhor the thought of a third trimester abortion unless it falls under the legal category. Let me quote plain text law in the State of Florida. Mind you that while different states have different wordings they are basically the same on third trimester abortions…I do condone self fourth trimester abortions however. Some peoples kids….

    Florida Statute Title XXIX: Public Health

    CHAPTER 390


    390.011 Definitions.

    390.0111 Termination of pregnancies.

    390.01114 Parental Notice of Abortion Act.

    390.01116 Waiver of notice petition; confidentiality.

    390.0112 Termination of pregnancies; reporting.

    390.012 Powers of agency; rules; disposal of fetal remains.

    390.014 Licenses; fees.

    390.015 Application for license.

    390.018 Administrative fine.

    390.025 Abortion referral or counseling agencies; penalties.

    390.011 Definitions.–As used in this chapter, the term:

    (1) “Abortion” means the termination of human pregnancy with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus.

    (2) “Abortion clinic” or “clinic” means any facility in which abortions are performed. The term does not include:

    (a) A hospital; or

    (b) A physician’s office, provided that the office is not used primarily for the performance of abortions.

    (3) “Agency” means the Agency for Health Care Administration.

    (4) “Department” means the Department of Health.

    (5) “Hospital” means a facility as defined in s. 395.002(12) and licensed under chapter 395 and part II of chapter 408.

    (6) “Partial-birth abortion” means a termination of pregnancy in which the physician performing the termination of pregnancy partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus and completing the delivery.

    (7) “Physician” means a physician licensed under chapter 458 or chapter 459 or a physician practicing medicine or osteopathic medicine in the employment of the United States.

    (8) “Third trimester” means the weeks of pregnancy after the 24th week of pregnancy.

    History.–s. 1, ch. 78-382; s. 1, ch. 86-286; ss. 4, 5, ch. 88-97; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 4, ch. 97-151; s. 37, ch. 97-264; s. 3, ch. 98-1; s. 14, ch. 2007-230.

    390.0111 Termination of pregnancies.–

    (1) TERMINATION IN THIRD TRIMESTER; WHEN ALLOWED.–No termination of pregnancy shall be performed on any human being in the third trimester of pregnancy unless:

    (a) Two physicians certify in writing to the fact that, to a reasonable degree of medical probability, the termination of pregnancy is necessary to save the life or preserve the health of the pregnant woman; or

    (b) The physician certifies in writing to the medical necessity for legitimate emergency medical procedures for termination of pregnancy in the third trimester, and another physician is not available for consultation.

    (2) PERFORMANCE BY PHYSICIAN REQUIRED.–No termination of pregnancy shall be performed at any time except by a physician as defined in s. 390.011.

    (3) CONSENTS REQUIRED.–A termination of pregnancy may not be performed or induced except with the voluntary and informed written consent of the pregnant woman or, in the case of a mental incompetent, the voluntary and informed written consent of her court-appointed guardian.

    (a) Except in the case of a medical emergency, consent to a termination of pregnancy is voluntary and informed only if:

    1. The physician who is to perform the procedure, or the referring physician, has, at a minimum, orally, in person, informed the woman of:

    a. The nature and risks of undergoing or not undergoing the proposed procedure that a reasonable patient would consider material to making a knowing and willful decision of whether to terminate a pregnancy.

    b. The probable gestational age of the fetus at the time the termination of pregnancy is to be performed.

    c. The medical risks to the woman and fetus of carrying the pregnancy to term.

    2. Printed materials prepared and provided by the department have been provided to the pregnant woman, if she chooses to view these materials, including:

    a. A description of the fetus.

    b. A list of agencies that offer alternatives to terminating the pregnancy.

    c. Detailed information on the availability of medical assistance benefits for prenatal care, childbirth, and neonatal care.

    3. The woman acknowledges in writing, before the termination of pregnancy, that the information required to be provided under this subsection has been provided.

    Nothing in this paragraph is intended to prohibit a physician from providing any additional information which the physician deems material to the woman’s informed decision to terminate her pregnancy.

    (b) In the event a medical emergency exists and a physician cannot comply with the requirements for informed consent, a physician may terminate a pregnancy if he or she has obtained at least one corroborative medical opinion attesting to the medical necessity for emergency medical procedures and to the fact that to a reasonable degree of medical certainty the continuation of the pregnancy would threaten the life of the pregnant woman. In the event no second physician is available for a corroborating opinion, the physician may proceed but shall document reasons for the medical necessity in the patient’s medical records.

    (c) Violation of this subsection by a physician constitutes grounds for disciplinary action under s. 458.331 or s. 459.015. Substantial compliance or reasonable belief that complying with the requirements of informed consent would threaten the life or health of the patient is a defense to any action brought under this paragraph.

    (4) STANDARD OF MEDICAL CARE TO BE USED DURING VIABILITY.–If a termination of pregnancy is performed during viability, no person who performs or induces the termination of pregnancy shall fail to use that degree of professional skill, care, and diligence to preserve the life and health of the fetus which such person would be required to exercise in order to preserve the life and health of any fetus intended to be born and not aborted. “Viability” means that stage of fetal development when the life of the unborn child may with a reasonable degree of medical probability be continued indefinitely outside the womb. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, the woman’s life and health shall constitute an overriding and superior consideration to the concern for the life and health of the fetus when such concerns are in conflict.


    (a) No physician shall knowingly perform a partial-birth abortion.

    (b) A woman upon whom a partial-birth abortion is performed may not be prosecuted under this section for a conspiracy to violate the provisions of this section.

    (c) This subsection shall not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury, provided that no other medical procedure would suffice for that purpose.

    (6) EXPERIMENTATION ON FETUS PROHIBITED; EXCEPTION.–No person shall use any live fetus or live, premature infant for any type of scientific, research, laboratory, or other kind of experimentation either prior to or subsequent to any termination of pregnancy procedure except as necessary to protect or preserve the life and health of such fetus or premature infant.

    (7) FETAL REMAINS.–Fetal remains shall be disposed of in a sanitary and appropriate manner and in accordance with standard health practices, as provided by rule of the Department of Health. Failure to dispose of fetal remains in accordance with department rules is a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    (8) REFUSAL TO PARTICIPATE IN TERMINATION PROCEDURE.–Nothing in this section shall require any hospital or any person to participate in the termination of a pregnancy, nor shall any hospital or any person be liable for such refusal. No person who is a member of, or associated with, the staff of a hospital, nor any employee of a hospital or physician in which or by whom the termination of a pregnancy has been authorized or performed, who shall state an objection to such procedure on moral or religious grounds shall be required to participate in the procedure which will result in the termination of pregnancy. The refusal of any such person or employee to participate shall not form the basis for any disciplinary or other recriminatory action against such person.

    (9) EXCEPTION.–The provisions of this section shall not apply to the performance of a procedure which terminates a pregnancy in order to deliver a live child.

    (10) PENALTIES FOR VIOLATION.–Except as provided in subsections (3) and (7):

    (a) Any person who willfully performs, or actively participates in, a termination of pregnancy procedure in violation of the requirements of this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (b) Any person who performs, or actively participates in, a termination of pregnancy procedure in violation of the provisions of this section which results in the death of the woman commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


    (a) The father, if married to the mother at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion, and, if the mother has not attained the age of 18 years at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion, the maternal grandparents of the fetus may, in a civil action, obtain appropriate relief, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff’s criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion.

    (b) In a civil action under this section, appropriate relief includes:

    1. Monetary damages for all injuries, psychological and physical, occasioned by the violation of subsection (5).

    2. Damages equal to three times the cost of the partial-birth abortion.

    History.–s. 1, ch. 79-302; s. 1, ch. 80-208; s. 6, ch. 88-97; s. 6, ch. 91-223; s. 64, ch. 91-224; s. 694, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 97-151; s. 1, ch. 98-1; s. 201, ch. 99-13.

    Note.–Former s. 390.001.

    390.01114 Parental Notice of Abortion Act.–

    (1) SHORT TITLE.–This section may be cited as the “Parental Notice of Abortion Act.”

    (2) DEFINITIONS.–As used in this section, the term:

    (a) “Actual notice” means notice that is given directly, in person or by telephone, to a parent or legal guardian of a minor, by a physician, at least 48 hours before the inducement or performance of a termination of pregnancy, and documented in the minor’s files.

    (b) “Child abuse” has the same meaning as s. 39.0015(3).

    (c) “Constructive notice” means notice that is given in writing, signed by the physician, and mailed at least 72 hours before the inducement or performance of the termination of pregnancy, to the last known address of the parent or legal guardian of the minor, by certified mail, return receipt requested, and delivery restricted to the parent or legal guardian. After the 72 hours have passed, delivery is deemed to have occurred.

    (d) “Medical emergency” means a condition that, on the basis of a physician’s good faith clinical judgment, so complicates the medical condition of a pregnant woman as to necessitate the immediate termination of her pregnancy to avert her death, or for which a delay in the termination of her pregnancy will create serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.

    (e) “Sexual abuse” has the meaning ascribed in s. 39.01.

    (f) “Minor” means a person under the age of 18 years.


    (a) Actual notice shall be provided by the physician performing or inducing the termination of pregnancy before the performance or inducement of the termination of the pregnancy of a minor. The notice may be given by a referring physician. The physician who performs or induces the termination of pregnancy must receive the written statement of the referring physician certifying that the referring physician has given notice. If actual notice is not possible after a reasonable effort has been made, the physician performing or inducing the termination of pregnancy or the referring physician must give constructive notice. Notice given under this subsection by the physician performing or inducing the termination of pregnancy must include the name and address of the facility providing the termination of pregnancy and the name of the physician providing notice. Notice given under this subsection by a referring physician must include the name and address of the facility where he or she is referring the minor and the name of the physician providing notice. If actual notice is provided by telephone, the physician must actually speak with the parent or guardian, and must record in the minor’s medical file the name of the parent or guardian provided notice, the phone number dialed, and the date and time of the call. If constructive notice is given, the physician must document that notice by placing copies of any document related to the constructive notice, including, but not limited to, a copy of the letter and the return receipt, in the minor’s medical file.

    (b) Notice is not required if:

    1. In the physician’s good faith clinical judgment, a medical emergency exists and there is insufficient time for the attending physician to comply with the notification requirements. If a medical emergency exists, the physician may proceed but must document reasons for the medical necessity in the patient’s medical records;

    2. Notice is waived in writing by the person who is entitled to notice;

    3. Notice is waived by the minor who is or has been married or has had the disability of nonage removed under s. 743.015 or a similar statute of another state;

    4. Notice is waived by the patient because the patient has a minor child dependent on her; or

    5. Notice is waived under subsection (4).

    (c) Violation of this subsection by a physician constitutes grounds for disciplinary action under s. 458.331 or s. 459.015.


    (a) A minor may petition any circuit court in a judicial circuit within the jurisdiction of the District Court of Appeal in which she resides for a waiver of the notice requirements of subsection (3) and may participate in proceedings on her own behalf. The petition may be filed under a pseudonym or through the use of initials, as provided by court rule. The petition must include a statement that the petitioner is pregnant and notice has not been waived. The court shall advise the minor that she has a right to court-appointed counsel and shall provide her with counsel upon her request at no cost to the minor.

    (b) Court proceedings under this subsection must be given precedence over other pending matters to the extent necessary to ensure that the court reaches a decision promptly. The court shall rule, and issue written findings of fact and conclusions of law, within 48 hours after the petition is filed, except that the 48-hour limitation may be extended at the request of the minor. If the court fails to rule within the 48-hour period and an extension has not been requested, the petition is granted, and the notice requirement is waived.

    (c) If the court finds, by clear and convincing evidence, that the minor is sufficiently mature to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy, the court shall issue an order authorizing the minor to consent to the performance or inducement of a termination of pregnancy without the notification of a parent or guardian. If the court does not make the finding specified in this paragraph or paragraph (d), it must dismiss the petition.

    (d) If the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, that there is evidence of child abuse or sexual abuse of the petitioner by one or both of her parents or her guardian, or that the notification of a parent or guardian is not in the best interest of the petitioner, the court shall issue an order authorizing the minor to consent to the performance or inducement of a termination of pregnancy without the notification of a parent or guardian. If the court finds evidence of child abuse or sexual abuse of the minor petitioner by any person, the court shall report the evidence of child abuse or sexual abuse of the petitioner, as provided in s. 39.201. If the court does not make the finding specified in this paragraph or paragraph (c), it must dismiss the petition.

    (e) A court that conducts proceedings under this section shall provide for a written transcript of all testimony and proceedings and issue written and specific factual findings and legal conclusions supporting its decision and shall order that a confidential record be maintained, as required under s. 390.01116. At the hearing, the court shall hear evidence relating to the emotional development, maturity, intellect, and understanding of the minor, and all other relevant evidence. All hearings under this section, including appeals, shall remain confidential and closed to the public, as provided by court rule.

    (f) An expedited appeal shall be available, as the Supreme Court provides by rule, to any minor to whom the circuit court denies a waiver of notice. An order authorizing a termination of pregnancy without notice is not subject to appeal.

    (g) No filing fees or court costs shall be required of any pregnant minor who petitions a court for a waiver of parental notification under this subsection at either the trial or the appellate level.

    (h) No county shall be obligated to pay the salaries, costs, or expenses of any counsel appointed by the court under this subsection.

    (5) PROCEEDINGS.–The Supreme Court is requested to adopt rules and forms for petitions to ensure that proceedings under subsection (4) are handled expeditiously and in a manner consistent with this act. The Supreme Court is also requested to adopt rules to ensure that the hearings protect the minor’s confidentiality and the confidentiality of the proceedings.

    (6) REPORT.–The Supreme Court, through the Office of the State Courts Administrator, shall report by February 1 of each year to the Governor, the President of the Senate, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives on the number of petitions filed under subsection (4) for the preceding year, and the timing and manner of disposal of such petitions by each circuit court.

    History.–s. 2, ch. 2005-52; s. 43, ch. 2006-1.

    1390.01116 Waiver of notice petition; confidentiality.–When a minor petitions a circuit court for a waiver, as provided in s. 390.01114, of the notice requirements pertaining to a minor seeking to terminate her pregnancy, any information in a record held by the circuit court or an appellate court which could be used to identify the minor is confidential and exempt from s. 119.07(1) and s. 24(a), Art. I of the State Constitution.

    History.–s. 1, ch. 99-321; s. 1, ch. 2005-104.

    1Note.–Section 2, ch. 2005-104, provides that “[s]ection 390.01116, Florida Statutes, is subject to the Open Government Sunset Review Act of 1995 in accordance with section 119.15, Florida Statutes, and shall stand repealed on October 2, 2010, unless reviewed and saved from repeal through reenactment by the Legislature.”

    390.0112 Termination of pregnancies; reporting.–

    (1) The director of any medical facility in which any pregnancy is terminated shall submit a monthly report which contains the number of procedures performed, the reason for same, and the period of gestation at the time such procedures were performed to the agency. The agency shall be responsible for keeping such reports in a central place from which statistical data and analysis can be made.

    (2) If the termination of pregnancy is not performed in a medical facility, the physician performing the procedure shall be responsible for reporting such information as required in subsection (1).

    (3) Reports submitted pursuant to this section shall be confidential and exempt from the provisions of s. 119.07(1) and shall not be revealed except upon the order of a court of competent jurisdiction in a civil or criminal proceeding.

    (4) Any person required under this section to file a report or keep any records who willfully fails to file such report or keep such records may be subject to a $200 fine for each violation. The agency shall be required to impose such fines when reports or records required under this section have not been timely received. For purposes of this section, timely received is defined as 30 days following the preceding month.

    History.–s. 2, ch. 79-302; s. 1, ch. 90-336; s. 191, ch. 97-101; s. 3, ch. 97-151; s. 2, ch. 98-1; s. 78, ch. 99-8; s. 202, ch. 99-13.

    Note.–Former s. 390.002.

    390.012 Powers of agency; rules; disposal of fetal remains.–

    (1) The agency may develop and enforce rules pursuant to ss. 390.011-390.018 and part II of chapter 408 for the health, care, and treatment of persons in abortion clinics and for the safe operation of such clinics.

    (a) The rules shall be reasonably related to the preservation of maternal health of the clients.

    (b) The rules shall be in accordance with s. 797.03 and may not impose an unconstitutional burden on a woman’s freedom to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy.

    (c) The rules shall provide for:

    1. The performance of pregnancy termination procedures only by a licensed physician.

    2. The making, protection, and preservation of patient records, which shall be treated as medical records under chapter 458.

    (2) For clinics that perform abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy only, these rules shall be comparable to rules that apply to all surgical procedures requiring approximately the same degree of skill and care as the performance of first trimester abortions.

    (3) For clinics that perform or claim to perform abortions after the first trimester of pregnancy, the agency shall adopt rules pursuant to ss. 120.536(1) and 120.54 to implement the provisions of this chapter, including the following:

    (a) Rules for an abortion clinic’s physical facilities. At a minimum, these rules shall prescribe standards for:

    1. Adequate private space that is specifically designated for interviewing, counseling, and medical evaluations.

    2. Dressing rooms for staff and patients.

    3. Appropriate lavatory areas.

    4. Areas for preprocedure hand washing.

    5. Private procedure rooms.

    6. Adequate lighting and ventilation for abortion procedures.

    7. Surgical or gynecological examination tables and other fixed equipment.

    8. Postprocedure recovery rooms that are equipped to meet the patients’ needs.

    9. Emergency exits to accommodate a stretcher or gurney.

    10. Areas for cleaning and sterilizing instruments.

    11. Adequate areas for the secure storage of medical records and necessary equipment and supplies.

    12. The display in the abortion clinic, in a place that is conspicuous to all patients, of the clinic’s current license issued by the agency.

    (b) Rules to prescribe abortion clinic supplies and equipment standards, including supplies and equipment that are required to be immediately available for use or in an emergency. At a minimum, these rules shall:

    1. Prescribe required clean and sterilized equipment and supplies, including medications, required for the conduct, in an appropriate fashion, of any abortion procedure that the medical staff of the clinic anticipates performing and for monitoring the progress of each patient throughout the procedure and recovery period.

    2. Prescribe required equipment, supplies, and medications that shall be available and ready for immediate use in an emergency and requirements for written protocols and procedures to be followed by staff in an emergency, such as the loss of electrical power.

    3. Prescribe equipment and supplies for required laboratory tests and requirements for protocols to calibrate and maintain laboratory equipment or equipment operated by clinic staff at the abortion clinic.

    4. Require ultrasound equipment.

    5. Require that all equipment is safe for the patient and the staff, meets applicable federal standards, and is checked annually to ensure safety and appropriate calibration.

    (c) Rules relating to abortion clinic personnel. At a minimum, these rules shall require that:

    1. The abortion clinic designate a medical director who is licensed to practice medicine in this state and who has admitting privileges at a licensed hospital in this state or has a transfer agreement with a licensed hospital within reasonable proximity of the clinic.

    2. If a physician is not present after an abortion is performed, a registered nurse, licensed practical nurse, advanced registered nurse practitioner, or physician assistant shall be present and remain at the clinic to provide postoperative monitoring and care until the patient is discharged.

    3. Surgical assistants receive training in counseling, patient advocacy, and the specific responsibilities associated with the services the surgical assistants provide.

    4. Volunteers receive training in the specific responsibilities associated with the services the volunteers provide, including counseling and patient advocacy as provided in the rules adopted by the director for different types of volunteers based on their responsibilities.

    (d) Rules relating to the medical screening and evaluation of each abortion clinic patient. At a minimum, these rules shall require:

    1. A medical history including reported allergies to medications, antiseptic solutions, or latex; past surgeries; and an obstetric and gynecological history.

    2. A physical examination, including a bimanual examination estimating uterine size and palpation of the adnexa.

    3. The appropriate laboratory tests, including:

    a. For an abortion in which an ultrasound examination is not performed before the abortion procedure, urine or blood tests for pregnancy performed before the abortion procedure.

    b. A test for anemia.

    c. Rh typing, unless reliable written documentation of blood type is available.

    d. Other tests as indicated from the physical examination.

    4. An ultrasound evaluation for all patients who elect to have an abortion after the first trimester. The rules shall require that if a person who is not a physician performs an ultrasound examination, that person shall have documented evidence that he or she has completed a course in the operation of ultrasound equipment as prescribed in rule. The physician, registered nurse, licensed practical nurse, advanced registered nurse practitioner, or physician assistant shall review, at the request of the patient, the ultrasound evaluation results, including an estimate of the probable gestational age of the fetus, with the patient before the abortion procedure is performed.

    5. That the physician is responsible for estimating the gestational age of the fetus based on the ultrasound examination and obstetric standards in keeping with established standards of care regarding the estimation of fetal age as defined in rule and shall write the estimate in the patient’s medical history. The physician shall keep original prints of each ultrasound examination of a patient in the patient’s medical history file.

    (e) Rules relating to the abortion procedure. At a minimum, these rules shall require:

    1. That a physician, registered nurse, licensed practical nurse, advanced registered nurse practitioner, or physician assistant is available to all patients throughout the abortion procedure.

    2. Standards for the safe conduct of abortion procedures that conform to obstetric standards in keeping with established standards of care regarding the estimation of fetal age as defined in rule.

    3. Appropriate use of general and local anesthesia, analgesia, and sedation if ordered by the physician.

    4. Appropriate precautions, such as the establishment of intravenous access at least for patients undergoing post-first trimester abortions.

    5. Appropriate monitoring of the vital signs and other defined signs and markers of the patient’s status throughout the abortion procedure and during the recovery period until the patient’s condition is deemed to be stable in the recovery room.

    (f) Rules that prescribe minimum recovery room standards. At a minimum, these rules shall require that:

    1. Postprocedure recovery rooms are supervised and staffed to meet the patients’ needs.

    2. Immediate postprocedure care consists of observation in a supervised recovery room for as long as the patient’s condition warrants.

    3. The clinic arranges hospitalization if any complication beyond the medical capability of the staff occurs or is suspected.

    4. A registered nurse, licensed practical nurse, advanced registered nurse practitioner, or physician assistant who is trained in the management of the recovery area and is capable of providing basic cardiopulmonary resuscitation and related emergency procedures remains on the premises of the abortion clinic until all patients are discharged.

    5. A physician shall sign the discharge order and be readily accessible and available until the last patient is discharged to facilitate the transfer of emergency cases if hospitalization of the patient or viable fetus is necessary.

    6. A physician discusses Rho(D) immune globulin with each patient for whom it is indicated and ensures that it is offered to the patient in the immediate postoperative period or that it will be available to her within 72 hours after completion of the abortion procedure. If the patient refuses the Rho(D) immune globulin, a refusal form approved by the agency shall be signed by the patient and a witness and included in the medical record.

    7. Written instructions with regard to postabortion coitus, signs of possible problems, and general aftercare are given to each patient. Each patient shall have specific written instructions regarding access to medical care for complications, including a telephone number to call for medical emergencies.

    8. There is a specified minimum length of time that a patient remains in the recovery room by type of abortion procedure and duration of gestation.

    9. The physician ensures that a registered nurse, licensed practical nurse, advanced registered nurse practitioner, or physician assistant from the abortion clinic makes a good faith effort to contact the patient by telephone, with the patient’s consent, within 24 hours after surgery to assess the patient’s recovery.

    10. Equipment and services are readily accessible to provide appropriate emergency resuscitative and life support procedures pending the transfer of the patient or viable fetus to the hospital.

    (g) Rules that prescribe standards for followup care. At a minimum, these rules shall require that:

    1. A postabortion medical visit that includes a medical examination and a review of the results of all laboratory tests is offered.

    2. A urine pregnancy test is obtained at the time of the followup visit to rule out continuing pregnancy.

    3. If a continuing pregnancy is suspected, the patient shall be evaluated and a physician who performs abortions shall be consulted.

    (h) Rules to prescribe minimum abortion clinic incident reporting. At a minimum, these rules shall require that:

    1. The abortion clinic records each incident that results in serious injury to a patient or a viable fetus at an abortion clinic and shall report an incident in writing to the agency within 10 days after the incident occurs. For the purposes of this paragraph, “serious injury” means an injury that occurs at an abortion clinic and that creates a serious risk of substantial impairment of a major bodily organ.

    2. If a patient’s death occurs, other than a fetal death properly reported pursuant to law, the abortion clinic reports it to the department not later than the next department workday.

    (4) The rules adopted pursuant to this section shall not limit the ability of a physician to advise a patient on any health issue.

    (5) The provisions of this section and the rules adopted pursuant hereto shall be in addition to any other laws, rules, and regulations which are applicable to facilities defined as abortion clinics under this section.

    (6) The agency may adopt and enforce rules, in the interest of protecting the public health, to ensure the prompt and proper disposal of fetal remains and tissue resulting from pregnancy termination.

    (7) If any owner, operator, or employee of an abortion clinic fails to dispose of fetal remains and tissue in a manner consistent with the disposal of other human tissue in a competent professional manner, the license of such clinic may be suspended or revoked, and such person is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    History.–s. 2, ch. 78-382; s. 1, ch. 80-413; s. 1, ch. 86-286; ss. 1, 4, 5, ch. 88-97; s. 65, ch. 91-224; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 5, ch. 97-151; s. 2, ch. 2005-95; s. 15, ch. 2007-230; s. 96, ch. 2008-4.

    390.014 Licenses; fees.–

    (1) The requirements of part II of chapter 408 shall apply to the provision of services that require licensure pursuant to ss. 390.011-390.018 and part II of chapter 408 and to entities licensed by or applying for such licensure from the Agency for Health Care Administration pursuant to ss. 390.011-390.018. A license issued by the agency is required in order to operate a clinic in this state.

    (2) A separate license shall be required for each clinic maintained on separate premises, even though it is operated by the same management as another clinic; but a separate license shall not be required for separate buildings on the same premises.

    (3) In accordance with s. 408.805, an applicant or licensee shall pay a fee for each license application submitted under this chapter and part II of chapter 408. The amount of the fee shall be established by rule and may not be less than $70 or more than $500.

    (4) Counties and municipalities applying for licenses under this act shall be exempt from the payment of the license fees.

    History.–s. 4, ch. 78-382; s. 1, ch. 86-286; ss. 4, 5, ch. 88-97; s. 5, ch. 91-282; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 6, ch. 97-151; s. 17, ch. 2007-230; s. 97, ch. 2008-4.

    390.015 Application for license.–In addition to the requirements of part II of chapter 408, an application for a license to operate an abortion clinic shall be made to the agency and must include the location of the clinic for which application is made and a statement that local zoning ordinances permit such location.

    History.–s. 5, ch. 78-382; s. 1, ch. 86-286; ss. 4, 5, ch. 88-97; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 7, ch. 97-151; ss. 21, 71, ch. 98-171; s. 61, ch. 2000-349; s. 25, ch. 2001-53; s. 2, ch. 2001-67; s. 148, ch. 2001-277; s. 41, ch. 2004-267; s. 18, ch. 2007-230.

    390.018 Administrative fine.–In addition to the requirements of part II of chapter 408, the agency may impose a fine upon the clinic in an amount not to exceed $1,000 for each violation of any provision of this chapter, part II of chapter 408, or applicable rules.

    History.–s. 8, ch. 78-382; s. 1, ch. 86-286; ss. 4, 5, ch. 88-97; s. 4, ch. 91-429; s. 10, ch. 97-151; s. 21, ch. 2007-230; s. 98, ch. 2008-4.

    390.025 Abortion referral or counseling agencies; penalties.–

    (1) As used in this section, an “abortion referral or counseling agency” is any person, group, or organization, whether funded publicly or privately, that provides advice or help to persons in obtaining abortions.

    (2) An abortion referral or counseling agency, before making a referral or aiding a person in obtaining an abortion, shall furnish such person with a full and detailed explanation of abortion, including the effects of and alternatives to abortion. If the person advised is a minor, a good faith effort shall be made by the referral or counseling agency to furnish such information to the parents or guardian of the minor. No abortion referral or counseling agency shall charge or accept any fee, kickback, or compensation of any nature from a physician, hospital, clinic, or other medical facility for referring a person thereto for an abortion.

    (3) Any person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    History.–s. 1, ch. 79-302; s. 66, ch. 91-224.


    I know that was a long read but I do need to point out that every state has simular laws some differing from others in certain areas but for the most part the same procedures are to happen. Agencies like Planned Parenthood is to inform you of the alternatives to an abortion many pregnant women do not realize they have. Usually pamphlets on the different state and federal alternatives to abortions. This is Florida law as of 2008 but this part of the abortion law has not changed much since 2001. The late term abortion portion was revised from in 2001 to get rid of a loop hole that was in the law. It is unlawful in any state unless of a medical emergency that puts the mother in jeopardy to have a third trimester abortion. It is unlawful to have a partial-birth abortion under these circumstances. The doctor must try to preserve life in these cases and make actual attempts to save the child’s life. But in these circumstances that would not be possible. There are things many people do not realize. One of which is that one day abortions are actually illegal and these practices are being investigated. I understand your view of abortion is wrong. But you are not listing facts just spouting out word of mouth information. This type of information is not always if ever accurate. The media does not want to push truth only the journalists opinions on a certain matter. It is required that the abortion be scheduled on a different day. When you walk into a doctor’s office for the first time there are procedures for intake. Clinics are the same way they must follow these procedures set up by federal and state laws governing these clinics. Most legal clinics require at least a week for the patient to review the materials and come up with an informed descision. The abortion process takes time this is to desway the patient unless the patients life is in danger.

    “That picture COULDN’T BE MORE ACCURATE!! Your views are warped and distorted…”

    That was in your post even though this statement is false in all matters since LMARFL is correct late term abortions only hold a small percentage because of the barriers that impede this action under a majority of state laws. This is the example of actions that most people would construe as self-righteous. I am tolerant I do not agree with your views and I have stated why. But that does not mean that I am intolerant of you. The thing I dislike is that you decided to label everyone who is for abortion as a liberal. I am not a liberal I do not label myself with such nonsensical labels. If I was it would be libertarian which is a completely different ball park and not even the same sport to a liberal.


  35. kay~ms said

    EE.. first, I think the picture above is totally accurate as representing a large group of “militant” pro choice women out there who are only capable of seeing the injustices that might be committed against them… they have blinders on when it comes to seeing the injustices that are committed against others…that THEY commit against others…their own flesh and blood. That is what that picture depicts and I think represents most pro choice activists. Especially the ones who are supporting the Freedom of Choice act. Which, when it passes, will make it even easier to obtain 3rd trimester abortions according to Bill Keller.

    And I don’t dispute the small percentage of late term abortions… but as I said, that small percentage still equals thousands of murders each year! late term abortions should be outlawed but won’t be because abortion advocates fear that it will jepardize the legalization of all abortions. so the murdering continues… and people who claim to be “against” late term abortions continue to enable these human rights atrocities by supporting abortion rights… because what’s the most important thing of all? a woman’s right to make choices… the life of an innocent child falls farther down on the list.

    And yes, I am a liberal labeler! I admit it… it’s so funny how everyone is so quick to deny that they are a liberal but still hold to liberal views. And when I say liberal views, I’m talking about the views that go against the Bible… not the views that Jesus held, the good liberal views.. to love and care for your fellow man. That what is in your heart is what is important… not the technicality of Jewish laws… that is how Jesus was a liberal. Other than that He was far from being liberal minded. (Dorian) He obeyed God… Doing God’s will was His first priority. That is why He went to Jerusalem… even though He knew what was going to happen to Him.


  36. You are wrong about several things. For one I do not follow Jewish law I just know a lot about it. I studied the bible for a long time. Obviously you did not read the full entire comment. Late term abortions ARE illegal except when the mother’s life is in jeopardy. It is a third degree felony to perform and willfully have a third trimester abortion. Unless there is a medical emergency. And in my experiences in those cases the baby has little chance to live if it still is alive. The thing is if you are convicted in the State of Florida for having a third trimester abortion, the state charges you with UNLAWFUL abortion, Child Neglect, and Manslaughter of the first degree. The minimum sentence for all three of these combined is around 20 years in prison. That is the law, this state has the second most strict abortion laws to date. You would know that if you read it. I am quick to deny I am a liberal because I am not. I may have views that are parallel to liberal views but that does not mean I am a liberal. I have stated this since people including you have tried to label this tag on my person. I am a realist, I know I do not live in a perfect world. I also know that there will never be such a thing as a perfect world as long as one person is free from tyranny and tries to stop tyrants from poisoning the human race. The only way the world will ever be perfect is through a tyrannical government of the likes this planet has never seen before. But that will never happen history shows us this, there are people who refuse to bow down and do what needs to be done. That is the concept of the story of the crucifixion. Not once did Jesus bow down to the Jews. Not once did Jesus renounce his teachings or what he knew to be true. He died doing something he needed to do, for the greater good of mankind. There will be others like him in that respect to spit in the face of tyrants and corruption.

    Bill Keller has an opinion without knowing the full facts. In the past years as I have said laws in all fifty states concerning late term abortions have been made stricter. They should be. But do you and Bill think it is right to let a woman die because there is something horribly wrong and the baby will probably not survive and even if the baby does survive and the pregnancy was not aborted the mother will not live. How can this be just? How can anyone claiming to be a chosen spiritual leader of God condone something that is needed to save lives? A doctor CANNOT knowingly kill a child during a late term abortion. Punishable by severe felonies. Not a slap on the wrist prison time with people who would do unspeakable things to that doctor for knowingly killing a child. It states that in the law, two doctors has to sign off on the late term abortion and it has to be done in a hospital with a neonatal unit and full obgyn facilities. And that is easy how? Seriously I present facts that favors your opinion. You say you are pro life but wish for a mother to die with her child? The condition that law states is very specific and cannot be faked. It includes ectopic pregnancies (it has happened.), detached placentas, a dead child whose decomposing body is putting the mother in septic shock. Those are examples of acceptable conditions of a third trimester abortion. Whether the fetus is viable or not…It is a serious thing and making it completely unlawful will kill mothers. Anyone going into an abortion clinic in the third trimester should just do a fourth trimester abortion on themselves. It is against the law it is a serious thing. It is outlawed except for very specific and life threatening cases. If there is no other option that two doctors cannot see then it happens. You cannot walk into an abortion clinic and have a third trimester abortion and not goto prison. They will get caught the State Government checks for inconsistencies and is prosecuting a OBGYN on multiple charges as well as practicing medicine without a license and prescribing drugs without a license. He is going to prison for a long time because he broke the law. The state is going after the women to as accessory because they broke the law. There are more and more cases in more and more states throughout the country. I do not condone third trimester abortions unless they are by definition lawful.

    And seriously liberal? You are speaking as if the liberals today were evil or maybe you are just ignorant of the definition and the many different ways it can be used in the english language. Yes Jesus had liberal views, and most liberals today and those who have parallel views see those things. But here is the definition of the word liberal and all the ways it is used in the American English language.

       /ˈlɪbərəl, ˈlɪbrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] Show IPA
    1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
    2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
    3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
    4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
    5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
    6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
    7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
    8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
    9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
    10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
    11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
    12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
    13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.
    14. a person of liberal principles or views, esp. in politics or religion.
    15. (often initial capital letter) a member of a liberal party in politics, esp. of the Liberal party in Great Britain.
    1325–75; ME < L līberālis of freedom, befitting the free, equiv. to līber free + -ālis -al 1

    Related forms:
    lib⋅er⋅al⋅ly, adverb
    lib⋅er⋅al⋅ness, noun

    1. progressive. 7. broad-minded, unprejudiced. 9. beneficent, charitable, openhanded, munificent, unstinting, lavish. See generous. 10. See ample.

    Obeying God doesn’t mean you have to be a slave of God or the Church. Jesus did not die on the cross because it was God’s Will. Jesus chose to go to the cross because he knew what he had to do. He could have chosen not to die on the cross, but he saw what would happen if he did not. Views that go against the Bible…views that go against the Church…you really want to re-open that can of worms? I am not taking your bait this time. I am not against the true word of God…I am against the blatant censorship of the word of God. The disbelief that God still speaks through mankind. I am against the organized religion that war with other religions in his name, and the organized religion that only sees a part of the whole truth. Or does not want the whole truth known.


  37. Enkill_Eridos said

    I win…lol j/k or am I? ….


  38. kay~ms said

    EE..if you’re out there right now, I missed these last responses… sorry.. I’ll read and respond… you know I never give up… :o)


  39. kay~ms said

    EE.. obeying God means putting Him first. And I don’t know the exact passage but when Jesus was praying to God just before He knew He was about to be arrested, that God would take “this cup” away from Him, He then said that He wanted God’s will not His. So are you saying that passage was incorrectly translated also? How do you decide which passages are correct and which are not?

    And again, to me, anyone who goes against the teachings of the Bible, which most definitely includes supporting abortion, is a Liberal (liberal minded). Certainly not conservative, put it that way.


  40. kay~ms said

    “Obeying God doesn’t mean you have to be a slave of God or the Church.”

    E.. what did you mean by this? We shouldn’t feel like a slave for doing God’s will, if we do then something is wrong. And something definitely is wrong if someone feels like a slave of the church.

    I bet many Mormons feel that way. But then again, they believe that they will be rewarded with many wives and their own planet. That must be why those boys are always so upbeat when they are peddling around all day on their bikes.


  41. dorian9 said

    kay, your last lines there made me laugh. you probably didn’t mean to crack a joke but that’s a good one to add to a comedy skit. i know it’s non-pc but i’m thinking of writing a skit on the mormons and jehovahs that come knocking at my door. but you gotta admit those young boys work hard and all else aside, you just want to give them a cold drink and a slice of pie.


  42. Princess said

    kay, what do you think the heavens are? planets, stars, galaxies, more than the sands on the beach. pearly gates, yellow brick roads. fireside chats and pies? well, we best get our gambling bug out of our *sses, because, all bets are off in heaven.


  43. Brock said

    WOW WHAT ABUNCH OF CLOSE MINDED BIBLE THUMPERS…….First of all late term abortion is horrible that is killing a baby like literally its letting it die but no hospital practices it.. Like im sure it wont be practiced after so long. That and if you dont like abortion dont have on eits none of your concern if someone wants to have or not have a baby that swhy its there. It dosnt matter how anyone feels about it. This country was founded under the impression that people would have choices. Choices under religion, sexual orientaion, and much more. If a girl or a cuople says they want an abortion they have that choice. why should they be forced bye law to have a baby then placed it in an adoption foster care were no one will love it nor care for it…….. Im not trying to sound rude. But people get the laws confused and mangled with the bible America gives the right to all those who live in its country to practice what they choose. So really abortion will be around for years to come and may even have a different out look ounce those who dwell on its negative outlook will stop being so stupid and reliece that its not killing anything. Its an embrio first off it dosnt breath or move it just sticks there and grows… So basically they rip it out so it stops growing … How comforting is that


  44. dorian9 said

    hello brock! thanks for stopping by and letting us know what you think. we have varying opinions living in this blog and the spectrum ranges from left to far right. we enjoy a good debate and abortion is always a hot topic. you may have to come back real soon….


  45. Enkill_Eridos said

    Even though I am busy with school so I cannot inject my own brand of “liberal poison” as kay likes to describe my opinion at times it may seem like we are closed minded bible thumpers I do have to say that if you read my comment you would know I am an open minded person that whacks things with his bible (its all it is good for really.) mainly my dogs when they are bad I have to put the fear of god in them someway…I already posted a legal type comment to show that third term abortions are absolutely illegal unless certain things dictate.

    Oh and by the way some bad news my wife is getting an abortion…now keep in mind the legal definition of an abortion. But something went wrong during pregancy and the fetus stopped developing and basically died the cause is unknown but the fetus must be extracted so it is labeled as an abortion. Again just to show a situation that if certain people got thier way and abortions were illegal that procedure would not be able to happen. An abortion does not always equal murder…and abortion is the termination of a pregancy before the regular gestation period ends. If the body causes an abortion it is called miscarriage or premature birth…but guess what it is the same damn thing. But any procedure where the body does not expell a dead fetus is called an abortion when you have to get a doctor to get it out. Yet another example of why abortions will never become illegal because of the legal definition of the word.


  46. dorian9 said

    e_e i’m sorry this happened, really sorry.

    that is a clearly a case of forced abortion isn’t it…hoping your next baby is healthy.


  47. Enkill_Eridos said

    Things happen and it is life…the next thing I will be seeing is a post that says heart attacks are the body murdering itself…Living things die thats what happens whether traumatic or natural causes it is a part of life and always will be. We should really stop debating about the act of abortion because we are beating a dead horse backing a truck on it driving forward and beating it again. It is dead, so is the anti/pro abortion debate niether side will ever truly win. So let us stop posting about abortion= murder we heard everyones song and dance no one is impressed. Let’s talk about whether the legal and medical definition of the term abortion should be changed or modified and why you think that. Debate something that is tangeble and can be discussed and debate for longer than the actual abortion issue itself can be debated. Something that actually CAN make a difference instead of something that MAY make a difference. That is the goal of this blog I must remind everyone is not only to show your own opinions and values but to actually TRY to make a difference one post at a time….That could be our new motto…Trying to make a difference one post at a time…what do you guys think? We are not the senate or the house we really do not need to waste time and energy debating over nonsensical debates niether side will win. We are using our own time and dime for these debates. Unlike the senate that debates over no-win topics for months and even years, we are not paid by the tax payers to do such things anyway.


  48. dorian9 said

    debate topic: abortion
    care to join?


  49. kay~ms said

    Hi EE, welcome back… Sorry to hear about that… I will pray for both of you.

    It’s hard to debate this topic with people when they are experiencing it and also forever afterwards… but if the other person wishes to I will.

    I’m going to post a comment right now in response to your long post… get ready…


  50. hey the debate is not about abortion but should the definition and the whole concept be updated because as I have said in the legal and medical worlds an abortion covers a huge spectrum of terminating pregancies early. One of these situations where the baby dies in the womb is one of them. I am just wondering what other people feel on the subject and actually think about what could happen if that change was implemented.


  51. Princess said

    that is a very good idea e_e. leave the abortion opinions here and debate the legal concepts over there. https://tothewire.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/rational-debate/

    also sorry to hear what happened. but you are right,
    and it does happen more often than people realize.
    and i suppose someone could look at a medical record of something that happened in a case like that and possibly make moral judgements if they saw the word abortion. i dunno.

    i stay out of this subject because i only have opinions, no facts. my biggest opinion is that people who are inclined not to reproduce should stay out of it.

    regardless of what others on here (kay) think, i was not created to have children.
    the great whatever designed me to do makeovers on false prophets and con artists.


  52. dorian9 said

    princess you’re wearing your sensible shoes today, eh? the most serious comment so far from you. yes, e_e is a good shepherd. abortion is a hard topic to debate on pure logic and yeah, it’s good that you’re making us think and discuss what the aftermaths could be in case the laws were changed or modified.

    uno due tre
    three of my blogging friends are here
    on kay you can count on to pray for one and all
    e_e always is the rational one of all
    princess never misses her curtain call
    uno due tre
    have a good day, y’all


  53. Brock said

    ? thankyou for being inviting???? Im actually not the dbating type considering that i have very little to stand on but from high school projects on abortion i agree with enkill..Abortion is in no way murder nor an unholy goddless thing.. Although i love animals and think hitting them with a bible is a bit to ruff .. I can simply look passed that hahaha. News paper is more my style but hey i dont judge.. Um i think that (me being a boy) i’ll never deal with the situation of having an abortion but i have family members who were and are adopted. And i think that having an older sibling who has downs abortion is also a way kinda help with unwanted babys. I know how unlovely and rude that may sound. But really to me it could be a cure. Like exp. If my mother would have aborted my older sister Kabi she would never have to deal with the hell she dose now. She lives in a retirment home with old people and others like her. She will never be normal never be married. Never have to joy of having a baby herself. Instead the best thing she’ll do all day is go to the lounge and see if there playing puzzles… So really if mom would of searched her options instead of our church..( my family is mennonite) we would of probably have only had two older siblings…. Now foster care and adoption.. My aunt and uncle were foster parents.. naturally they had three kids of there own and a six almost seven bedroom farmhouse.. At one point they had 6 other foster kids living with them… Alot of those kids will never stay in one home or ever graduate. Never have a family to love them. And will keep the pattern going bye goign to jail. Getting with someone popping out more kids.. And live of foodstamps and more tax dollors.. So really if it be late term abortion or abortion in general… Really i think the only option we have left to make the hole world happy is if we give these unwanted babys to the amish.. Fereal they love th ehell outa some kids.. They get the work around the house done and they can ease on the scare of if there sister will give birth to a two headed baby…. well till next time Brock is out =] peace and love


  54. Princess said

    hey brock, i enjoy reading your posts.
    i agree, i don’t condone beating dogs, but if one must, the bible is perfect for such things. i used to get beaten with the bible and i never once had fleas.

    i’m not a debater, either. just opinions on this subject. i think a women should have the right to choose, but i know of women that have had 4 or more abortions. it’s not for birth control. and i know a few young women under 20yrs of age that are going on their 4th child. they can’t take care of them.
    it makes no sense. luckily, i am a dude.

    DISCLAIMER: THE FOLLOWING IS IN EXTREMELY POOR TASTE!!! don’t watch if you are easily offended.

    “this absolves me from all blame.” – Lucy Van Pelt.


  55. Brock said

    That video just didnt make any since once so ever lol.. And people dont think about what being a parent is really all about what pisses me off is when people say and think adoption is going to work.. Ok because all little babys get adopted bye cute widdle familys who have a pool and white picket fence. No.. Black babys have it ruff if a hippy family dosnt adopt them there screwed.. Bye aunt and uncle and parents have adopted in total five kids my older brother Aaron who is black.. My younger sister Kylie who is chinese and my causins who are all white.. So really my point is abortion is not killing something it is’nt for murdering purposes and it is’nt bad at all.. Its simply a way for woman and maybe even some familys to consider there way of helping both the child and somewhat even themselves


  56. Princess said

    brock, i know, that video doesn’t make any sense. but it made me laugh, too. i don’t usually make a lot of sense.

    you make very good points.


  57. AMM002 said

    I don’t care to comment on the immaturity I saw in the arguments above so I’ll just stick to the picture, People have every FREEDOM to abort a child, but not any right. There’s an old saying that goes, “The right to swing my fist ends where the other mans nose begins.” I can’t make all the legal arguments of above posts, I’m only 17, but I can apply common sense rather well. That saying applies because there is indeed a person in there and while it may be a mother’s freedom to abort, it is not her right. Whose to say that baby wasn’t going to find a cure for cancer or something or would have just grown up to be a good person with a loving family. Self-preservation is hard-wired into us, but so also is the parental instinct to protect our children no matter the cost to ourselves, and I would willing do so for any children that may lie in my future. I have a 30 ACT score, an estimated 145 IQ, I’m captain of the wrestling team, lead jester in the school madrigal dinner, and friends with nearly everyone I meet. I’ve always been told that I have so much potential, and in all honesty and arrogance, I must admit that my parents and all my teachers may be right. But still I would lie myself down to protect those that I care about with no hesitation. It’s not a trait of stupidity, and I would rather like to think it’s one of unselfishness. I’ve had a very limited amount of time on this Earth as of yet, but I am thankful for every single moment, every single breath I take because if I’ve learned anything in these 17 years, it is that life is the single most precious commodity in the universe that we humans can possess. Those of you who do believe in abortion, I don’t say any of this to dissuade you from your own position, only to better help you understand the position of those of us who don’t. The only time I really see abortion as viable is when it would kill the mother to have the child. As I said earlier, life is the most precious commodity we can possess.


  58. princessxxx said

    you are really proud of your accomplishments aren’t you? quite full of yourself. get back to me when your 40 and see how things are going for you, wunderkind.


  59. kay~ms said

    Thank you for your comments Amm002. I agree with you. Unfortunately women have the freedom to abort their child but that doesn’t make it right. And the saying that you quoted fits the situation PERFECTLY! The right to do what we want should stop when it directly affects someone else in a detremental way… and that IS the case / law in general.. just not for those that don’t have a voice… they’re labeled as “not yet human” so we can do whatever we want with them.


  60. AMM002 said

    Not proud princess, I just used them as an illustrator of my character, I’m actully a very modest person because I want to avoid becoming overly arrogant, which anyone would admit is hard to do for a human, like I said, “in all honesty and arrogance”, it’s a saying of mine. It means that while the truth may you look like a jerk sometimes, it’s still the truth. By the way, I liked the german there at the end, always wanted to learn german. As far as the “not yet human” subject goes scientifically speaking if it’s not a human then it must not exist because that zygote which eventually is turned into a fully grown human being can be turned into nothing else. If you were to plant the pit of a peach, you get a peach tree, a cherry pit, a cherry tree. It’s simple logic, it is a human because it can’t be anything else, the only difference between what I am now and what I was at conception, is time. From the first moment of conception, that thing as some refer to it is alive, life is defined as an object growing, developing, and maturing, i.e. it’s not dead, so it has to be alive, and who has the power and the wisdom to say that anything but saving another life is good reason for taking a life? Who? Who among us has that authority? No one, because life is valuable above all except itself. A bit obvious but there it is.


  61. princessxxx said

    i see, if that is the way you feel, that makes perfect sense.

    i suggest if you are against abortion you probably shouldn’t have one. 😉

    it really is a decision that a woman should make for herself.

    how do you feel about war? lots of lives are lost that way.


  62. obama the antichrist said

    i am really in the mood to play devils advocate so im going to (i agree with everything you say)

    so who among you have the authority to take away a womans happiness? (considering she hates children) you cant tell her to stop having sex cuz she wont and you cant tell her to be more careful cuz accidents happen.

    then who among you have the authority to put a newborn in a crappy home where it will end up scarred for life? where it will have little food its parents are druggies where it will be mistreated for life all because the woman was told she couldnt have an abortion.

    sorry amm002 just wanted to challenge you a bit. if you are going to answer to the first point with “what about the babies happiness?” then refer to point 2 where there is no happiness


  63. obama the antichrist said

    and if you should say something about happiness doesnt compare to life then wouldnt the newborn be better off not existing if he hated his life that he was forced to have


  64. obama the antichrist said

    war is essential in the human race. just like it is on the playground the tougher you are the less people will bug you sure you may get detention sometimes but that teaches you how to be sneakier and use better scare tactics! ahahahaha plus the only way to stop a bully is to fight back! hope that made sense (i know this was for ammoo2) but i wanted to answer 😀


  65. princessxxx said

    well, a lot of innocent people die during war. a whole lot.

    women will have abortions regardless if it is legal or not.
    i tend to think if the baby is unwanted it is probably going to have a crappy life. there are so many children in foster care already.

    back in old testament days, you could kill your child for cursing you. i don’t know the verse and chapter, but it is in there.

    anyway, since i can’t get pregnant, i really don’t feel it is my issue to make a judgement. i just think it is for the woman to decide and not have that decision made for her.

    by the way, obama the antichrist, what field of medicine are you studying to practice? just curious.


  66. dorian said

    this reminds me of what our friend RJ (she’s in this thread) said about (paraphrasing here) “all this concern about the unborn – how about the born?”
    i like that OTA, devout christian as he is, can see the other side of the abortion issue as well.


  67. obama the antichrist said

    awww thanks dorian!!!!!

    and i am hoping to become a cardiothoracic surgeon.


  68. kay~ms said

    I have a comment in moderation for the two wolves post.


  69. kay~ms said

    Wow.. reading your comments OTA… shows that ignorance, in this capacity, is not exlusive to the liberals as I previously thought. We debated this issue recently and you exited because you could no longer defend your point of view… YET, you clearly haven’t changed your point of view… it’s excruciatingly disappointing and troubling… and sad.

    Your (and other’s) line of thinking here is obscene… I’ve proven that. We have no right to judge if another’s life is worth living or not! We have no right to make that decision for them! Extreme IGNORANCE and ARROGANCE!!


  70. kay~ms said

    I’m going to try again… even though I’m sure I’m going to regret it…

    you said: ”
    so who among you have the authority to take away a womans happiness? (considering she hates children) you cant tell her to stop having sex cuz she wont and you cant tell her to be more careful cuz accidents happen. ”

    You have got to be kidding me! Allow someone to not be responsible for her own actions?? To take away the life of another is okay because a person refuses to be responsible?

    “accidents happen”… so go ahead and fix it by taking away another’s life…. yeah, that’s the answer… I think you’re confused OTA… you need to come out of the closet… you are just a liberal who likes money.

    You said: “then who among you have the authority to put a newborn in a crappy home where it will end up scarred for life? where it will have little food its parents are druggies where it will be mistreated for life all because the woman was told she couldnt have an abortion.

    There are countless people who have started out in rough circumstances and they are happy and glad that they weren’t aborted.

    Again, it is no one’s right to make that decision for someone else. And it’s real easy for you to say… you have your life.


  71. princessxxx said

    kay, who are you to judge anyone? you aren’t god.

    talk about arrogance.

    and those aborted babies. god almighty knows they are never going to have a life anyway. according to the bible he knows everything, those murdered fetuses are shipped UPS straight to heaven. preplanned postage paid.

    anyway, kay, i want to debate you on this, i have more evidence that the bible is flawed. tbg might be interested, too.



  72. dorian said

    kay, everytime someone doesn’t concur with your views, especially your anti-choice views, you’re so quick to slam them with the words ignorance and arrogance. i think that’s arrogant of you.

    pro-choice is allowing a woman to be responsible for her own actions. you are not given a choice if you were raped and got pregnant. how can you say it’s right to take away a woman’s choice to not continue a pregnancy she does not want?
    this isn’t iran, where the church has the power to lay down rules based on what the clerics feel is just, according to their interpretation of their holy doctrines.

    here’s a christian that speaks positively. i’ve listened to her program a couple of times and in both instances she’s talked about how to enjoy everyday life.


  73. kay~ms said

    P, my judgement of OTA is much more just than your’s of Amm002 (comment 58)… “who are you to judge?”.

    Judgement is allowed.. it’s unjust judgement that is wrong… like you hypocritically judging me of judging.

    I am judging OTA and I gave an explanation as to why I came to my judgement. You both call me arrogant for critisizing OTA and I don’t really care. Ignorance NEEDS to be pointed out. If you want to call me arrogant for doing so go ahead. I see it as missing the point… or not acknowledging it because you don’t have an argument… or… it’s a ridiculous, WEAK argument…

    “and those aborted babies. god almighty knows they are never going to have a life anyway.” HOW DO YOU KNOW?? You don’t know that for sure!!


    “pro-choice is allowing a woman to be responsible for her own actions.”… NO! Pro Choice is allowing a woman to make the choice of taking the easy way out… at the consequences of another human being!

    ” you are not given a choice if you were raped and got pregnant. how can you say it’s right to take away a woman’s choice to not continue a pregnancy she does not want?”

    So, your agument is… it is ok to follow one wrong with another. Killing is WRONG! You can’t argue that!

    How can you say it is right to end the entitled life of another because the woman doesn’t want to continue her pregnancy??


  74. dorian said

    killing is wrong, of course so i take it you’re also against capital punishment for ted bundy or charles manson or scott peterson. whatever, kay.
    i know abortion is your pet joy and you’ve dedicated about a thousand pages of rant on this but i’m not gonna be included this time, so goodbye! remember, you are not changing anybody’s minds and i expect you’d be calling everybody names like murderer, ignorant, hypocrite, etc.. etc..(see above thread)there will be others who will oblige you on this.


  75. kay~ms said

    And once again, I’ve addressed that erroneous and ignorant point… comparing unborn INNOCENT human beings with animals who MADE the choice to put themselves in the position that they did. They did it to themselves!!

    No, sadly, I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind… even though my point cannot be argued validly and hasn’t been… it’s almost as sad as the actual killing of the innocent.

    What is that saying??… “ignorance is bliss”.. so true, but also very tragic.

    Truth is the enemy of liberals.


  76. dorian said

    c’mon now, kay – you’re telling us that a 10 year old girl sexually abused by her father MADE the choice to put herself in that situation?? your rationale is certainly blinded by your bias towards the abortion issue. this is NOT a liberal or conservative issue. it is a MORALITY and FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN issue. there are many conservatives that believe in abortion being a case-per-case issue. here’s something for the religious extremists all over the world:


  77. obama the antichrist said

    um excuse me kay READ THE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i said i agree with your view points amm002 i am just challenging you! I was playing DEVILS ADVOCATE!!! i havent changed my view point i was challenging someone elses! now if you please just read the whole post before you attack me again…mmk thanks


  78. obama the antichrist said

    kay im sorry you dont know how to read the first line in my post. i like to challenge views as well this kid is 17 and he is pretty smart i wanted to see if he could defend his views against anothers. again i agree with amm002 ok. and i left the argument because i hadnt been on in awhile and when i came back there was too much to read and i didnt have the patience or the time.

    kay im truly sorry you jumped to conclusions that were completely wrong.

    o well cant change a mind now can ya?


  79. obama the antichrist said

    kay im kinda tired of you calling ppl ignorant when you are illiterate. read before you post kay please thats all im asking if you misunderstand something ask and i will be happy to explain when i get the chance…wow i couldve just posted my rant on one post whoops


  80. obama the antichrist said

    hypocrite first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
    let he without sin cast the first stone
    love your neighbor as yourself

    kay the above was from OUR Lord and Saviour Jesus. kay i have my own share of problems and sins and i will be the first to admit them when i am judged before God. but that does not give you the right to insult my intelligence. i most certainly am not ignorant i see both sides and i understand why each side thinks that way. its disappointing to see a fellow christian insult me for trying to challenge someone at 17’s viewpoint. i was doing it in good faith. i agree with amm002. i dont want him/her to believe those views just because their parents believe it. i want them to accept it as their own and understand why and i want them to understand their opponents view point as well.

    now you will prob say that i called you illiterate and that i am a hypocrite and blah blah. but you jumped to conclusion because you couldnt see past your own fault. now kay please dont call me ignorant agian.


  81. obama the antichrist said

    last one of my rant i promise. i repeated myself alot but i am just pissed that i was attacked for no reason. and i felt i should post and then something would come to mind and i would post again then again then again. anyway its 1 here and i have to wake up at 6 goodnight all!!!


  82. kay~ms said

    okay… you did say that you agree with Amm002, but the rest of your post “devil’s advocate” was you making the same arguments that you made when we debated this earlier. And you exited that debate with no acknowledgement that you had changed your view. The only thing that told me you did was your comment where you say you agree with Amm002. BUT then you proceed to produce the same arguments FOR abortion. Even though I understand the plights of some in the situations that you described… I could never “play devil’s advocate” because I firmly believe in my view. Your comment #62 was EXTREMELY confusing.

    Yes, I will admit that I skimmed over that first line, I partially didn’t understand your wording / structure. And I wouldn’t have been as harsh as I was had I taken the time to understand that sentence better… but I still would have said most of what I said… you don’t seem to have changed your view in my opinion at all.

    I didn’t call you ignorant but I did feel that I observed ignorance. And anyone who takes the view that abortion is justified, in my opinion, is displaying ignorance for the injustice of the unborn. Complete ignorance.


  83. kay~ms said

    I apologize for attacking you. This is not an excuse but it came forth out of the frustration of having extended debates on this particular subject, proving the irrationality of putting someone’s comfort first over the entire life of another and instead of acknowledging how wrong that is.. they just quietly fade away and pretend that the conversation never happened. (“ignorance is bliss”) And then so many times the subject will come up again at a later date and the same arguments are given for abortion and it’s like the previous debates never even took place. And even though you were “playing” devils advocate, it truly does seem that you still don’t see abortion from God’s point of view.

    Can you still play devils advocate and produce arguments to my responses to your points? I would be very interested to hear your answer.


  84. kay~ms said

    Dorian, you said: “c’mon now, kay – you’re telling us that a 10 year old girl sexually abused by her father MADE the choice to put herself in that situation?? ”

    Are you saying that denying abortion is a form of punishment by conservatives? Because it’s not. It’s about doing the right thing.

    I wonder if pro choicers ever think about this… this girl will have to live the rest of her life thinking that she killed her child. Or that her guardians had her child killed and her living with the guilt of not trying to stop them. Or missing her child, wondering about him/her. Abortion doesn’t end the problem… it stays with a woman for the rest of her life with either choice. It often leads to depression. So if you’re really putting the welfare of the child / woman first, at least acknowledge the mental and emotional anguish that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Many women would do it differently the second time around.


  85. Again with the beating of the dead horse…Oi Vey!

    Kay, most pro-choicers actually understand what happens after any type of abortion. I do include miscarriages in this subject. Anytime something like this happens it effects everyone involved. Not just the women. There is only one reason why I am pro-choice, and that is because if abortion becomes regulated like gun control (this nations biggest joke) things will get a lot less comfortable. I think this because I have seen it with gun control, it will also happen with abortions and procedures that happen during abortions. These procedures are not exclusive to abortion, these procedures save lives. Yes there is a emotional, physical, and spiritual price that must be paid. But believe me any time you are put in a position to actually end life you must pay this price. Only the truly disturbed is not phased over that kind of descision. This involves other issues than just abortion. This involves Tramua Medicine, Law Enforcement, Other Medical Fields, Military Affairs, Politics, and I am sure there are a few others. In each of those job fields at least at one time in your life you take a life, or your decisions cause a loss of life. Everyone of those fields someone else’s life is in your hands. It is the same thing with parenthood. Whether you are pregnant or already have children, untill the age of 16 that child depends solely on you for housing, food, medical treatment. Most responsible people choose to go hungry than allow thier children to go hungry. So when something goes wrong with a pregnancy and a descision has to be made. Which believe it or not the minority of abortions is what pro-lifers are talking about. Most abortions happen because the probability of the mother loosing her life or her body for whatever reason is not compatible with pregnancy. It happens a lot more than the pro-life and even pro-choice websites report. But I am sorry I guess it is selfish to choose your life over your babies. I guess it is also selfish to know you will die and that child would grow up without a family because of whatever reason you may think that. In most cases the child would be orphaned and become a ward of the state.

    Oh and the irony that this post was bumped on the National Miscarriage Awareness Day was not lost on me. Personally I think it was very tacky.

    But you know what it was thier choice to make they have to live with the cost. I made many choices that caused people to loose thier lives, there have been a few times in my life where I had to choose to give someone enough morphine to allow them to die with no pain, and then to move on to someone that could have been saved. I have been put in a situation where it was a child’s life or mine. It was not easy and it was very painful. I am one of the few men that can sympathize with a woman who has had gone through a miscarriage or abortion. Shooting a child or saying sorry nothing can be done giving them morphine and moving on to someone that probably will try to blow up a building is about the same cost as having a miscarriage or an abortion. It is unavoidable, but it is the consequence of choice. But sometimes indescision has much worse consequences.

    So if you know of someone that has gone through a miscarriage or an abortion, know this it is not your place to tell them they where wrong. It is not your place to tell them what they did. It is not your place to tell them to try again. Unless you are a clergy member of a Church or religious organization do not tell them it was “Gods Will.” Like I said before unless they have something wrong with them mentally they will be affected by it. You adding your thoughts and beliefs unasked does more harm to the person, sometimes that is the last straw and causes that person to go into self destructive behavior, which most of the time does not end well. Before you read on think to yourself, have you ever known anyone to have a miscarriage or an abortion? What did you say to them after you found out? What are they doing now?

    Like I said before every descision that ends in the loss of life has its price. So if you have a single shred of empathy you are probably wondering well what can I do? Well there are some simple things you can do to at least show someone that someone is there to help. You don’t need to be a psychologist to help people.

    Here are somethings you can do.

    Tell them that you are there to listen. Many times just listening without speaking back or injecting your ideas is what someone needs.

    Only offer advice when they ask for it.

    If they ask for advice on where to go for help and you do not know, go with them and find out.

    Just be there to take them to doctors appointments talk to them make them feel loved.

    It is important not to add your two cents unless they ask for it, many times someone just needs to know someone is there to help or someone that they know will listen. These things seem unimportant but does help in preventing suicide and minor cases of depression.


  86. princessxxx said

    kay said
    P, my judgement of OTA is much more just than your’s of Amm002 (comment 58)… “who are you to judge?”.
    Judgement is allowed.. it’s unjust judgement that is wrong… like you hypocritically judging me of judging.”

    oh, is that right? is that what jesus said? NO, he did not”
    for a christian kay, you don’t seem to know one goddamned thing about the bible”
    and i’m not being hypocritical, because i don’t believe or claim to follow the teachings of jesus

    “and those aborted babies. god almighty knows they are never going to have a life anyway.” HOW DO YOU KNOW?? You don’t know that for sure!!

    well, ignorant arrogant kay, anyone that knows and believes the bible, it clearly states that god knows you in the womb, and therefore he knows in advance that the fetus is going to be aborted. if you deny that, you are denying god’s omnipotence of course that is all bullcrap, but it is what you claim to believe.


    How can you say it is right to end the entitled life of another because the woman doesn’t want to continue her pregnancy??

    ignarant arrogant kay, i didn’t say it is right or wrong, i said it’s not my choice, it’s the mothers.

    funny, you are so concerned about the life of an unborn child, but you don’t want it to have health care.


  87. princessxxx said

    here kay, since you don’t read the bible, i will read it for you.

    the man you claim to follow said,
    “Luke 6:37
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:”

    and since “you” sit in judgement, you are judged as ignorant and arrogant (and rightly so i might add).

    kay, if you are going to declare yourself a christian, why don’t you try to act like one.
    you are very condemning, you get that from reading too much bill keller.


  88. kay~ms said

    Princess…YOU are in no position to judge anyone on their Christian conduct. You trash Christianity every chance you get… what a hypocrite. Make up your mind, are you for Christianity or against it? You keep quoting Jesus… if you want me to listen to you, at least try to be more Christian like yourself. And admit that Jesus exists and He does know you and cares about you. Sorry for the preaching.

    This passage:

    “Luke 6:37
    Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:”

    is referring to hypocritical judging. Judging in general is not wrong…on the contrary; it is a necessesity in life.

    And when I say someone is showing ignorance for not realizing what abortion does: take away another’s entire life, it is not hypocritical of me because I DO realize this. You could say, “well, you are not seeing the other side so that makes you ignorant”. No, I DO see the other side; I do understand the dilemas.. I was there myself. So in this instance I don’t feel that my judging is inappropiate.

    When I accuse someone of ignorance I am accusing them of IGNORING facts (the rights of the unborn as one example). I don’t feel that I am ignoring anything concerning this issue.


  89. princessxxx said

    kay, i was wrong about you.
    you’re not ignorant and arrogant.
    you’re a fucking retard.

    go ahead and twist the words of jesus all around.

    it’s not for YOU to judge or condemn anyone, just like the verse says.
    the word “hypocritical” judging is not to be found there.

    got a problem with that? take it to the lord in prayer.


  90. kay~ms said

    What is that saying?.. it takes one to know one? Right back at ya hypocrite…

    It must be nice to accuse everyone (Christians) of not being Christian like while you get to behave any way you please because you’re not a Christian. What a nice position to be in.


  91. kay~ms said

    You said: “it’s not for YOU to judge or condemn anyone, just like the verse says.
    the word “hypocritical” judging is not to be found there.”

    Jesus said: “hypocrite first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”


  92. obama the antichrist said

    kay you reworded my argument from the other post. This time i was refering to the average abortion. the other i was referring to the woman getting raped. there is a major difference. and if you cant see that then i am truly sorry. i got move a stubborn donkey


  93. obama the antichrist said

    i cant not i got sorry bout that


  94. princessxxx said

    good kay, take the words of jesus and apply them to yourself.

    otherwise you are not a christian.

    i am not a christian, so it does not apply to me.

    who is the hypocrite? you are.


  95. kay~ms said

    I have several times admitted that I am a hypocrite sometimes… have you? No

    OTA, you said: “the other i was referring to the woman getting raped. there is a major difference.”

    Do you think there is a difference with God?


  96. obama the antichrist said

    AHAHAH o kay “do you think there is a difference with God?” no kay there is no difference. with God there is only love and you cant have a difference with God when he is only love. its like looking at a white wall and asking yourself is one side of the wall different from the other. there is no difference between my/your sins and abortion. i am no better than a person who got an abortion in God’s eyes and neither is anyone else. the difference is on a human level not a holy level


  97. kay~ms said

    ok.. if you say so OTA… You are right in that all sin is bad and we are all sinners… but that’s about it.


  98. obama the antichrist said

    ha how bout this kay romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” so i think the “all” part makes us all equal so i guess i am pretty right kay. cant beat the bible


  99. obama the antichrist said

    and kay are you saying that God isnt love? as a christian i thought you would know that


  100. kay~ms said

    You are missing the point OTA… don’t you think we should obey God? Don’t you believe in doing God’s will? And I don’t think God’s will is to have a life aborted.

    If you or anyone else is trying to interpret my stance as me considering myself as less of a sinner because I never had an abortion.. you are wrong. I’m no better than the women that did get an abortion… I just said “we are all sinners”, it wasn’t necessary for you to quote Romans.


  101. obama the antichrist said

    i guess youre right kay. you made me realize that i am less of a christian because i a considerate of a raped womans feelings.


  102. princessxxx said

    kay says it wasn’t necessary for you to quote romans.
    and kay also took a direct quote of jesus and manipulated it to suit her own needs.

    obviously kay is not interested in what the bible says.

    let’s try this, instead of saying, “jesus said”, let’s say “bill keller said”, then kay will believe it.

    one more time kay, if you think abortion is wrong, don’t have one and don’t perform one.

    but it isn’t up to you to judge or condemn those that do.

    you got that straight, girl?
    so sayeth the lord bill keller.


  103. princessxxx said

    and don’t say, well, princess, you condemn and judge.

    that’s right i do, that’s what us heathens do.

    condemn and judge, it’s what makes us non-christians. lol


  104. kay~ms said

    Twist and shout P (who likes to twist things) says… “one more time kay, if you think abortion is wrong, don’t have one and don’t perform one.

    but it isn’t up to you to judge or condemn those that do.”

    That logic doesn’t fly… just replace the word “abortion” with “murder”. The “to each his own” doens’t work here… there is another human being involved who deserves to be protected under the law.

    And I am not condemning anyone by stating my belief that it is wrong… are you saying that we cannot state what we believe is wrong now? That that is condemning someone else? More liberal stupidity and ignorance. More liberal hypocrisy… control and restraints hidden inside the false concept of “liberalism”. Liberals are really secret control freaks; they want to FORCE their warped views onto others… how ironic and HYPOCRITICAL is that??


  105. kay~ms said

    OTA… I give up on you… you’re a lost cause I fear…


  106. dorian said

    kay you might as well give up on all of us because:
    we condemn anyone else stating what they believe is wrong. we hold liberal beliefs that are stupid and ignorant. we are control freaks and want to force our warped views onto others. we are hyprocrites.

    you said all this is the last paragraph of your comment #104, as well as many other comments of yours all over this blog.

    out of curiosity, does it really matter to you whatever anyone else says about their beliefs if they differ from yours? sometimes i feel you just welcome the chance to diss any non-fundamentalist and vent out your hate for them…


  107. princessxxx said

    oh kay, seriously, of coursed abortion is murder. i think murder is wrong so i’m not going to do it, either.
    but who knows? anyone can commit murder. who am i to decide who kills who, when what where how?…why.
    unfortunately i wasn’t granted such great powers. 😉 darnnit.

    of course, as a none christian, i can judge and condemn them to my hearts deee-litte!
    BUT YOU CAN’T. remember, what jesus said. OK? 🙂

    ps, god said i can pick on all of the phony christians i wanted.


  108. princessxxx said

    well, at first he told me to dye my hair blond but i said “please god do i really have to?
    and god said, “no i was just busting your balls…hehe.

    and i said, “what a relief, remember all that crack i smoked the last time i dyed my hair blond”

    and then whe both had a good chuckle, and then she said, “do that cute little rita hayworth number that you used to do every halloween. piss some phony christians off.”

    i said, “lord, you gotta deal.”


  109. princessxxx said

    i’m kinda disappointed i didn’t get the power to kill who, what where, when, how , why?
    …..apparently god gave all those great powers away to the bush family. 🙂


  110. obama the antichrist said

    kay jesus christ is my savior and God is my judge not you kay so i dont need your approval. condemn me all you want but you arent my ticket to heaven. me agreeing with every “christian” thing that you say wont give me the mansion on the hill in heaven. so go ahead give up on me. it doesnt matter i agree with my views and so do alot of other ppl. so lots of luck to you


  111. princessxxx said

    thank you obama the antichrist. that is the exact answer.

    you said it a lot better than i could, you know, what with all of that blond fiasco and stuff. haha

    by the way, my heart is in good shape.


  112. kay~ms said

    And what are your views on abortion again OTA?

    P, again Jesus said don’t be a hypocrite.

    Dorian, I made those observations based on what people have said here on this blog… if my observations are incorrect, help me to understand that instead of critisizing me for making honest observations. And I never used the word stupid.. ignorant, yes, but not stupid.

    And yes, liberals are trying to control the views of others.. and if they can’t then they turn to certain tactics, like calling people crazy or laughing at them ( like Chris Mathews fake laugh) to “argue” their view. Those are dishonest tactics that only people with control issues would use.


  113. obama the antichrist said

    kay my views of love and compassion for a hurt woman is not going to keep me out of heaven. agian you are not my judge kay. here is a video start at :39 and end at 2:10

    its referring to homosexuality but i think it can apply here. thanks callie!


  114. obama the antichrist said

    dang i have a comment waiting….


  115. princessxxx said

    kay said, “P, again Jesus said don’t be a hypocrite.”

    for the last time kay, i’m not the christian, you are.
    i don’t care what jesus said about anything,
    but if you are going to pretend to be a christian, you should care.


    why don’t you go write a poem or something?


  116. dorian said

    kay – that chris matthews doesn’t mince words and i doubt he’ll fake a laugh. he’s genuinely laughing at those hapless rightwing distortions of newsfacts. i laugh too, everytime i go and watch the “fair and balanced” fox news.


  117. kay~ms said

    Oh, I stand corrected… no one noticed? That was very STUPID of me…

    Dorian, this Youtube video of Chris Matthews interveiwing Tom Delay shows perfectly what I’m talking about… it’s the fakest, most forced laugh I think I’ve ever seen on tv.

    And then he goes on to ask very stupid questions like… did anyone ask for your birth certificate? Tom Delay is not the president for one and most likely he doesn’t have the same circumstances concerning his place of birth like Obama does so the two are not comparable… Matthews is an idiot here and this interview does nothing for the argument against birthers. And I’ve never seen anyone on Fox (conservatives) use those RIDICULOUS tactics when arguing their point. It’s pretty pathetic.


  118. obama the antichrist said

    o kay really. matthews talked over delay so many times as you would see glenn beck and oriley do when they are interviewing. its one in the same. Fox is just as extreme as msnbc. and the question matthew asked was completely legit. they are both law makers and were elected and need to be us citizens so i think its comparable completely.

    Tom Delay held his own well. he did the right thing by saying may i speak. pointing out that matthews was trying to give delay less air time. matthews did wrong by putting tom delay. he should have put on someone weaker.


  119. AMM002 said

    Yes, War is wrong too, and no it isn’t a choice a woman should make for herself, it goes against any true sense of right and wrong that ever came into existence, and by the way, I can’t have an abortion, I’m a guy, but you probably guessed that. Whose to say that baby wouldn’t grow up to be, a brilliant scientist or something, point in case Stephen Hawking, but anyway, if we could stop all the worlds problems that would be really nice but that would require a lot of people to admit they’re wrong and a lot of people to not jeer at others for it and basically everyone would have to be decent to one another and for some reason it’s really hard for some people to just be good people and complete and total jerks. But I digress, I haven’t checked this for awhile and I probably won’t again for awhile but that’s how it goes. If anyone would like to have a conversation with me about it I’ll be on from time to time.


  120. AMM002 said

    I took a little time to read the conversation on war and such above and I see we’ve gotten off track again. We keep getting so frustrated at the other person for not understanding our views or not relenting their opposition that we devolve into petty name calling. Arrogance, well, we’re human arrogance is not something any of us can escape, so we shouldn’t point it out when we see it, only look at it as a reminder of our own arrogance and a reminder to strive to be better. For in this life what meaning is there if we are not constantly struggling to better ourselves, if we are not making ourselves an example of nobility and kindness. OTA stated something who among us can tell a woman to stop having sex is basically what he said and he is correct, none of us has or ever will obtain that authority, but if that woman were working to make herself better then the problem would never have arisen. Oh and by the way, scientifically speaking because of Vasopressin and Oxytocin, hormones released during intimacy, If somebody only has sex with one person their whole life their experiences would be more gratifying, more pleasuring, than those of somebody who had slept with, well more than one person, regardless of how good their partners were. A little off topic but an interesting tidbit nonetheless which makes me again say to myself, “see abstinence, no worry of unmarried pregnancies, STDs, and now better sex too.” overall a win win situation, but that is way off track now and may have embarrassed or offended more than one person but oh well.


  121. kay~ms said

    OTA.. I didn’t see you response (#118)…

    You are right, Bill O’reily is worse than Matthews… I was wrong on that… He’s probably done the fake laugh too.

    As to Matthews questions to Delay about Obama’s birth certificate… it is NOT comparable in the sense that is being discussed… the Presidency and Delay’s position are hardly comparable. And as a defense it is utterly stupid to present such a question… Tom Delay, as a member of the US goverment SHOULD have been asked for his birth certificate… that he may not have been is no defense. Just as, EVEN MORE SO, Obama should have been required to show a TRUE birth certificate. Matthews has to be intelligent enough to understand this… he’s extremely biased in this interview.

    And again, there are no questioning circumstances concerning Delay’s citizenship as there is with Obama’s … particularly that he is spending so much money to NOT show his birth certificate. (and as Delay said.. He DID present his birth certificate when asked) So the question of Delay being questioned for his certificate and Obama being questioned for his are not comparable in the context of the issue.

    Amm002 said: “and no it isn’t a choice a woman should make for herself, it goes against any true sense of right and wrong that ever came into existence,”

    I agree… and agree with most of what you’ve said here in the last two comments.

    As for what OTA said: “OTA stated something who among us can tell a woman to stop having sex ..”

    He is missing the point… the desire to want to tell people what to do concerning their own lives is a problem in itself… we should only desire to convince them. As to the problem of abortion.. the idea shouldn’t be to try and control the person to alleviate a problem as I just explained but to reason / convince them AND to hold them accountable for their choices. What OTA described was a parent / child type of relationship.

    OTA..I know you said we can’t tell a woman to stop having sex. But just that the idea was entertained is what motivated my response. The answer to the problem is again, NOT abortion… (because a woman is going to have sex anyway whether we tell her to or not)… it’s to educate / inform and hold people responsible for the choices that they make.


  122. princessxxx said

    AM002, are your thoughts rooted in a religion?


  123. Enkill_Eridos said

    AM, I think it should be a choice available for a woman to make herself. Not at the third trimester, but for instance. If I was a woman and was raped, by someone later convicted of serial rape, or serial rape and killing. I wouldn’t want to bring in another potential serial rapist/serial killer. Now you may bring nature vs. nurture argument, but it has been proven that serial killers/rapists is a victim of an imbalance somewhere in the brain. There is a difference between a serial killer, that all of a sudden kills people because they think God tells them to. And a serial killer that from an early age couldn’t help but killing small animals. I mean both suffer from mental illness, sometimes from a nurture aspect, but most of the time its a nature. Its just like saying being gay is a choice. I know I don’t wake up in the morning and ask “Will I take it in the can today? No, I choose not to but maybe tomorrow.” But I also know that I am not attracted to women with less than a 18 waist. Its just how I’ve always been. But that’s besides the point, knowing that medical science has proven that a serial killer’s brain has this kind of imbalance. Also knowing that it could be genetic, I wouldn’t want that kind of responsibility. Now going from one extreme to a more plausible reason. Placenta detachment, ectopic pregnancy, incestuous rape, statutory rape(not consensual there is now a difference between consensual statutory rape and non concentual statutory rape) and other sex crimes. Are top reasons why women get an abortion. What about the same procedure is used when doctors extract a non-self aborting miscarriage? If you make the abortion procedure illegal, conservatives and liberals will do exactly what they did with gun control. They will go overboard about it. I believe there should be regulations, just like any other medical facility. I think that laws should be put into place that require a woman who is not the victim of a sex crime, to go through the adoption process. I think adoption agencies should be required to provide temporary medical health care. But to completely ban abortion, and all the procedures that is used. I believe that is a huge mistake. I don’t think abortions are humane, or even right. I do think it comes with consequences that clinics do not talk about. I think more psychiatric centers should have miscarriage and abortion support groups. I think the picketing conservatives should research why most people actually have an abortion. I think picketers should picket the adoption agencies. You can go into an adoption agency, but unless the adoptive parents are willing to pay for all of the medical bills, you have to pay for it. So why aren’t pro-life groups pushing for a requirement for adoption agencies to provide health care? Since if every citizen had the opportunity to get quality healthcare, funded by the government, that is socialist and would not be good for the citizens at all. It’s crap, an argument given by mostly two faced hypocrites. Let’s ban abortion, and government funded health care for all!


  124. AMM002 said

    EE, liked your comments up there, it was a good solid argument, and I agree to an extent, I don’t want to outlaw abortion in every case, it would be great if we could just rid ourselves of all the mentally unstable, strictly meaning those insane enough to rape or kill because as far as I’m concerned you have to be crazy to do either of those things, without hurting anyone but then that would be too good to be true. I believe myself that the only time abortion is acceptable is when the mother’s life is in danger, i.e. they pretty well know that she can either abort and live or have the baby, who could die later anyway, and die. And as far as the whole nature nurture thing goes, I do believe that you get the genetic framework for how you interpret things from your parents and that that framework will very heavily affect every choice you make but I also am a staunch supporter of the ‘no matter what happens to you, you can overcome it and strive to be better than you were and leave the world a brighter place.’ type of doctrine, it’s how I was raised and how I intend to raise my children and how I hope they will raise their children. I say people are essentially good, but that we are easily tempted and prone to commit misdemeanors, but that if we hold on to our minds and control our emotions that we can all strive towards that day when all people will live in peace with themselves and each other. I do not believe that I will ever see that day myself, or that it will come even in the time of my great great grandchildren, in fact I believe my line will have long been ended before it comes to that, but I do believe that it will come and I have hope for our species. For if we can achieve no greater than that which we have now, why do we exist at all? And as of right now, I don’t think our government is competent or coordinated enough to pull off universal health care even if it did pass, bu that IS just my opinion after all. . . but then as was the rest of what I have been typing here, true it is based on facts, but it still is just an opinion is it not?


  125. AMM002 said

    Princess, no my thoughts are not based in religion. I do consider myself to be mildly religious, if there is such a thing. I believe what I believe and that is good enough for me, but I’m out to recruit people by any stretch of the imagination. No, my thoughts on this subject are based on cool logic and compassion for my fellow human. I believe we all are entitled to at least try to live our lives and make the best of it that we can, even if that best isn’t very good. Glad I am that I was allowed my chance to live, my chance to find that one that I love , my chance to be kind and helpful to anyone I can, but it grieves me to know that every day thousands are denied this most basic of rights that must be acknowledged before anything else can come of that human. I believe that we all must live our lives in what seems to us the best way to help those around us whether we be more or less fortunate, sadly many of us fall painfully short of the mark and I am no different, there have been people I have hurt myself, but do not hide that fact, and it is the one type of action I have ever regretted in my life, but even so I would not take it back for if I could and did, I would be a completely different person than the one who is conversing with you now, and there is the chance that maybe by doing some harm I did those people a small bit of good, unlikely though it is, I just know that everything is connected and that I could never see all that became of what I have done and what others have done. And besides that I understand that there are people out there who don’t believe the same things about religion that I do and that they may be offended or try to completely negate any argument that involved that if I used it, and while if someone tried to force the issue with me and let me know that they are right and I’m wrong I’d look them straight in the face and tell them how much of an ass they were and much much more, I recognize that in a world in which not everyone is of the same religion or even any religion, religion has no place in any argument, I argue with only facts and morals, and while I could try to tug on the heartstrings of my allies and to belittle my opponents it goes against my own code of morals and if I were to go against that, I would lose the entire foundation upon which I have built my life so far and what I have would be worthless. In the end my whole life depends on my integrity and so I will not let that fail, I have abstained from sexual activities, I have worked to develop my mind and body, and I have tried to improve the lives of those around me. So far I’m doing fairly well I would say, but now I digress, and it’s late, as I am typing the clock is telling me that it is now twenty past midnight, so I must leave this as is. I shouldn’t even have typed for this long considering I haven’t been to bed before twelve the last two nights but I was doing a research paper for Chemistry and I decided to check this anyway.


  126. princessxxx said



  127. kay said

    that was funny…


  128. princessxxx said

    nothing funny about abortion, kay


  129. AMM002 said

    No, there is nothing funny about it, and though some of us would rather curl up and pretend it doesn’t exist or that it’s merely a necessity, we can’t afford to, everyone deserves the chance to live if nothing else, and that chance is being taken away from over 1.3 million children a year, in this very country, where “We hold these truths to be self-evident, That all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” I quote Thomas Jefferson because what he wrote I truly believe, and I don’t believe that we can say when a human is a human and when it’s “just a blob of protoplasm”, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes once said, “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” Therefore as that zygote will not and cannot be anything other than a human, then it must be a human. And according to the definition of murder,1. transitive and intransitive verb kill somebody illegally: to kill another person deliberately and not in self-defense,2. transitive verb kill somebody brutally: to kill somebody with great violence and brutality,5. transitive verb destroy something: to put an end to or destroy something there are more definitions but they all agree on one point, murder is wrong and they almost all say that murder is the killing of another human, unless it is a figurative murder, for which I provided the definition labeled 5. And as to the whole genetic predisposition argument about axe-murderers, everyone has a choice, whether they are predisposed to doing something or not, I know from personal experience, we humans don’t do anything because we “can’t help it”. That’s is the worst excuse I have ever heard for anything, it’s the biggest cop out ever, and I must get a hold of myself, I don’t ever erase anything if I meant to say it, but I maybe shouldn’t have gotten my ire up just now, which is a very rare thing at any rate, but I can’t stand being helpless, especially when people are dying for it. There are only two things I want to do with my life, and one of them is to leave this world a better place than I found it, so I want to solve as many problems as I can, to help others, you know. But it’s kind of hard to do for a teenage boy whose family doesn’t come from money, but I intend to build myself from the strength of my back, the sharpness of my mind, and the stubbornness of my my will so that one day, I may be able to reach out and help those who need it, but that is a ways off yet, I still need to finish my senior year of high school and move on to college and on to a substantial career from there. But if I work hard and keep striving to make myself better, I can make it. And that same thing goes for all of us, we all have that fire in us and we can all chose to do good for others, and if a large number of people chose to do something noble, those people can change the world. I don’t mean 3 or 400 people or even 3 or 4 million, I mean if our whole country and a few other countries like Britain,France Germany, China, Russia and other sizable countries stared making pushes for the betterment of all not just themselves then we could see that day when all humans unite in a bold effort stand against the darkness to strive to survive and to keep our way of life intact, When we become more focused on the big picture than on ourselves, then we will be worthy of remembrance in the memory of this universe, then other species which may develop long after we have dwindled and vanished from existence will be able to look upon the records of our lives and say, we can only hope to be like them one day. I look to make myself a role model for others because no else looks like they want the job, or those that do only want to be thugs or pansy’s or any other manner of things that we should be trying to cleanse ourselves of, I look to do that because I want to have a positive influence on others, I’m still only human, I still like it when people say good things about me, and therein lies some of my motivation I’m sure, but it is what it is, what else can it be?


  130. princessxxx said

    AM200 SAYS,
    “I look to make myself a role model for others because no else looks like they want the job, or those that do only want to be thugs or pansy’s or any other manner of things that we should be trying to cleanse ourselves of,

    isn’t that the same thing hitler said?


  131. princessxxx said

    yes, let’s not kill the babies,
    but if they grow up to become thugs or pansies,
    let’s get rid of them.
    that’s very noble of you.


  132. princessxxx said

    and how do you suppose we are to “cleanse” oursleves of thugs and pansies?

    concentration camps,
    gas chambers,
    biological weapons,

    i read where you are doing a paper on chemistry.
    what are you going to do, boil them in acid?

    what you really should do with your education is build a giant peace bomb.
    ….or some sort of anti-pansy vaccine.

    Take this psychology test to find out about your personality!


  133. AMM002 said

    Don’t, twist my words, if there is anything I hate in this world it’s when people twist what I say or lie to me or about me. No Hitler wanted to be rid of everyone not like himself, they were a threat to his power and he couldn’t handle it. and I never said get rid of those people, the whole point of everything I typed earlier was that we all have those “demons” inside us, but no matter what we have the urge to do, we can all choose to deny those urges, to cleanse ourselves of any want to do wrong, I’m sorry if my words were misleading but what I meant was totally different than what you tried to make of them. And besides Hitler was also trying to blame his problems and screw ups on others, I fully accept the responsibility and repercussions of my actions. And as long as we’re on the subject of Hitler, you know he killed over eleven million over a course of 12 years, but abortion will have claimed that many in little over 8 years at the current rate and I’m not counting all the years from when abortion was legalized in 1973. If you go from January 2009 to January 2017, an eight year period, the total number of deaths by abortion will reach 10.96 million, in the United States alone, so that isn’t counting the 193 countries in the world. Actually, if you do count those countries, the 1.37 million yearly in the U.S. to a staggering 42 million with 115,000 children dying every day.


  134. kay~ms said

    okay.. I just took that test and quess what? It is very liberaly biased!

    Yes, I did score low on everything except the nervous / high strung.. I scored high on that.

    But, I scored low on the “closed minded” dimension and I know that is because I chose “strongly disagree to the “POLITICAL liberal” question. And that is just not true… I consider myself open minded, I just don’t agree with POLITICAL liberal ideas. I went thru that whole stupid test only to find out at the end that it was LIBERAL garbage… thanks P.


  135. kay~ms said

    There was nothing about morals in those questions and then they throw in “politically liberal” at the end… Either you’re politcally liberal… “a plus”.. or you’re closed minded… what a bunch of biased crap.


  136. AMM002 said

    I don’t know what test you’re talking about but I’m not politically liberal either. I only want policies that really do help people not just look god on a congressional agenda. I’m for green power and conversion to it because it will help with a lot of things, like the unemployment rate, I’m against euthanization and abortion because killing somebody doesn’t help anyone, and it’s completely and totally backwards, and I’m against outsourcing, yeah I’d like to help those people in other countries get jobs, just not mine you know. I’m pretty open-minded myself and it sounds like I would score pretty low on that test as well.


  137. AMM002 said

    Wow, I just looked up at princesses’ last comment and again wow. Somebody resorts very easily to name calling and mudslinging. I’m sorry you are so inclined to see the worst in everybody Princess but you will find what you look for in anyone . . . none of us is perfect, and besides, do you know how completely ridiculous your remarks were, if I’d said something that uncontrolled and rash I would be completely and utterly ashamed of myself, but maybe you don’t hold yourself to as high a standard as I do, its a pity, I was beginning to think I had convinced you to try to separate yourself from your baser habits but I suppose we are only human, right, you couldn’t help it, trying to insult me, right? Trying to discredit my argument by discrediting me. From what I’ve seen people only do that when they are utterly desperate for some way to salvage their side of the argument and they have no other acceptable opinions. But like I said, that’s only in My experience, I’m sure there are people out there who are able attack the other person instead of their argument and be completely mature and reasonable about it. Princess, please don’t do that again,I don’t play those games. and I have already explained what I meant, so please stick to valid arguments about the topic and not my own personal character. Because I can throw it right back to you, obviously.


  138. AMM002 said

    And yes, OTA, I’m sorry I didn’t see that post earlier but I was in Colorado for a while with no computer, but anyway, yes I’m aware that you are in agreement and that you were just playing the devils advocate, I was just answering your arguments about that. Sorry for the miscommunication.


  139. AMM002 said

    And Princess, I’m sorry for those words, but please don’t resort to those tactics, if we fight each other how can we find peace with our fellows who do support abortion?


  140. dorian said

    i’m for eugenics. not everybody should be allowed to be breeders. too many irresponsible people procreating and perpetuating more irresponsible people. best to mandate a psychological test. those who don’t pass, snip-snip.


  141. AMM002 said

    Well, I suppose that should be a voluntary thing, it would probably solve a lot of problem if we did that, but then it may cause just as many and then there is the fact that we don’t have the right to do that, just like while I’m against abortion, I can’t honestly say that it would be right of me to tell someone they can’t have one. I can tell them all the medical, psychological, and moral reasons not to have one, but that’s all I can do. I don’t have the power or authority to determine what another person will do, and really no one does, we just permit others to decide things for us because it is convenient and what we’ve always known, and so far the best way to do things. But it’s late here, I just got off of work and it’s actually twelve here so I’m gonna post this kind of unfinished like and sign off. And again, I apologize for my outburst earlier, I meant what I said, or I wouldn’t have said it, but I do apologize. I’ve been here preaching that we should control ourselves and hold ourselves to a higher standard and I let myself be goaded for a moment, at least I proved one point I’ve been trying to make . . . We are ALL only human and even though we may try to be better, we will still do stupid things because they might seem like good ideas at the time. I could cop out and say I couldn’t help it but it would be a lie, I knew exactly what I was saying and yet I said it. Again no one is perfect, but something I don’t understand is why those of us who support abortion in this little ,”forum” for lack of a better word, are fighting amongst ourselves. That’s ridiculous, part of that is my fault, I wasn’t aware that Princess was on our side but then her arguments did seem to put her on the pro-“choice” side, although they never did actually state she was for it. But like I said, part of that was an error on my part and I accept that. anyway, as I said earlier before I got on my apologetic soap box, it’s after twelve here in the midwest so I’m gonna sign off probably for a couple of days but I’ll try to just check it tomorrow at least. Goodnight all.


  142. princessxxx said

    am200, 17 yr olds do not tell me what to say, think or do.
    you got that right?

    you think too highly of yourself,
    just wait to see what life throws at you.

    you said “cleanse ourselves of thugs and pansies”.
    what the hell did you mean by that?,
    and what do you consider a thug or a pansy?,
    because guess what i’m a thug AND a pansy.

    what are you going to do about that, IQ of 150?


  143. princessxxx said

    better bring some mr. bubble if you plan on cleansing me.


  144. AMM002 said ” we all have those “demons” inside us,”

    And Carl Jung pointed out that to the extent that we fail to recognize the darkness within ourself, to that same degree we project it upon others and say “There is the darkness. It isn’t in me. It’s in the (fill in the blanks of whoever you want to use as scapegoat).”

    Also, we have to love the enemy, even within ourself. We have to accept the darkness within without judging it or condemning it. That doesn’t mean we act on it, but just recognize that at least the potentiality for evil is within each of us. The darkness within can contribute to good just as manure can contribute to the smell of a rose.


  145. btw, I paraphrased some of a mp3 audio file I have of Alan Watts talking about Carl Jung. It’s called “Seeing through the game.”

    Of all the teachers I’ve had, I’ve learned the most from Alan Watts the past six years or so even though he’s been dead since 1973.


  146. princessxxx said

    hey tbg, 1minionsopinion has a great article on evolution.


  147. AMM002 said

    Princess, I’m not telling you what to think or do, just what I think. Yes I think highly of myself, but I’ve got quite a bit to be proud of, and I already know and accept that life is hard and cruel. But I’m willing to push through it, at least I get to live . . . And just because I try to beat back those darker parts of me doesn’t mean I succeed at it, the difference is I’m making the effort. But we have gone way off topic and lost sight of the real argument, the morality of abortion, so if you don’t mind I would like to return to it. And btw if you’re a thug or a pansy, get a life, that’s not cool or anything. Learn what life is about don’t just lament on how terrible your life is or how much it sucks, if you aren’t happy with your life, fix it, that’s as blunt as I can put it. Like I said, I’m not always so nice myself.


  148. dorian said

    the morality of anything is a no-win argument. there will be no winners there as long as we are human with free will and different beliefs and proclivities. you can postulate and pontificate as much as you want on any given topic and in the end it will be, bottomline, OPINION.
    so with the subject of abortion, it may be wrong for you, ammoo2, but it may be right for a young woman who was raped by her father, to have an abortion. you say you are pro-life? well consider that it goes both ways. there is the unborn and there is the born. why only see the immorality in not continuing what is unwantedly developing in the woman’s body? how about considering what that young woman’s life would be? and if your moral ideals are made happy with all abortion being made illegal, what do you propose to do to help with all the unwanted births population and building more prisons to house all the women who will still have abortions in the illegal clinics that will be around when that happens? i’m sure you’ve read about what happened when alcohol was banned in this country.
    that was a morality issue too.


  149. yep…prohibition is a great example of the stupidity of trying to legislate the world so that everything is “up” and nothing is “down.” It comes from a flawed view of reality that is self-contradicting, where the rules are double binds that cannot be followed.

    I am not female, but if I were I would certainly NOT carry to term a baby that came from my being raped. Since there is some evidence that some behavior at least may have some genetic basis even if it is not always expressed unless triggered by environmental stress, I would not want to pass on the genes of a rapist to future generations. That is NOT helping humanity at all.

    Now I don’t approve of someone using abortion as birth control, but I’d rather have it legal than illegal. Otherwise the women will be going to the back alleys with the coat hangers again.


  150. dorian said

    we are all predisposed to character traits passed on genetically and there is the learned behavior from our parents’ upbringing. most child abusers have been abused as children themselves, and the destructive behavior is perpetuated. not everyone should have children. therein lies my self-contradiction – i’m liberal minded but not when it comes to everybody going forth and procreating. children do not raise themselves. there are far too many irresponsible obtuse people who are not parent material. snip ’em.


  151. princessxxx said

    amm002, where the hell did you get the idea that i am unhappy with my life, bitch.

    let’s get this straight one more time.
    you are only 17yrs old,
    i’m 3 times your age,
    you only have 17yrs of life experience,
    so you really don’t know what you are talking about.

    now, when it comes to abortion, what is it to you?
    you are never going to be faced with making that choice, it’s not yours to make.

    and i would rather be a thug pansy than some “know it all 17yr old faux moralistic brat”, anyday..


  152. princessxxx said

    hi dorian,

    am200 reminds me of this fag named joey bastinelli that was my neighbor in key west.

    joey was 21 and he was always boasting about his i.q. or his impeccable moral values, or bragging about being the captain of his wrestling team and the president of the glee club.

    and he was always railing against abortions, all the time.

    finally one day i said, “what’s it to you?, you’re gay. you are “never” going to be presented wih that choice.”

    and joey responded, “i’m not gay, it’s just every once in a while i like to play with a dick other than my own. i plan to be married to my high school sweetheart with 4 children by the time i’m 30.

    (what a funny comment, “every once in a while i like to play with a dick other than my own.”
    well, as his neighbor, i knew that once in a while meant every single day.)

    anyway, make a long story short, joey was arrested at a local late nite anonymous gay sex cruising area for cocaine possession.
    and then shortly after that he died of aids.

    am200 seems to have that same lack of understanding of REALITY that joey bastinelli exhibited.

    anyway, i hope am200 knows that thugs and pansies will mop the floor with her.


  153. dorian said

    P, amm002 will probably understand, maybe at 40, what you’re talking about now.
    at 19, i thought i knew so much too. the older you get and the more you learn thru life experience is when you realize how little you do know.

    amm002, never mess with a thug or a pansy. unless you’re one yourself.


  154. Sammy_03 said

    I don’t care what anyone says but abottion is worng! No matter how late or early the stage is. You dont want to have a baby dont have sex. Do the people in jail have the “right” to kill who ever they wont or anyone for that matter?! Killing someone with a gun is the same as killing a baby with forceips or a vacuum. STUPID PEOPLE, how couldyou only think of yourseleves when you have life within you? I just will never understnad!


  155. Sammy_03 said



  156. Enkill_Eridos said

    Really? You are going to call a fetus a baby? It really doesn’t matter, until it is proven life exists at conception. Which I believe it most certainly does not. What about the rape victims, or incestual rape victims? Shouldn’t they have the same right to choose? Abortions don’t always happen because the person just doesn’t want a baby. A friend of mine’s cousin had an abortion, because the guy who was having sex with her mom, also coerced her into having sex with her as well. She was 13 at the time. And the guy was violent, after he was found out he took a bat and terrorized these two. The level of fear that was shown means he may have abused both of them without either’s knowledge. Fear is a motivator to hide these things. This guy was manipulative, violent when things didn’t go his way. I am glad his offspring was destroyed before it came into this world. Abortion isn’t always wrong..it is wrong when you have one just because you can’t afford it. But because you don’t want to raise the child of someone who mentally and physically tortured you, is not wrong. Abortion because you were dragged and violently attacked both physically and sexually, is not wrong. Abortion because your brother raped you, is not wrong. Abortion because a pedofile molested you is not wrong. Because these things happened to these women, it doesn’t mean they asked for it. It doesn’t mean they did anything wrong. But you are implying it does. Oh you shouldn’t have let yourself get raped…Obviously you have never known a family with a domestically violent person in it..Or have you ever known a rape victim and what they go through when they find out they are pregnant. I pray that you are never put into any of these situations.


  157. Enkill_Eridos said

    I understand that you didn’t actually say the they shouldn’t have let themselves get raped. I was implying it based on the people who use your exact arguments, and then use the argument I gave when I bring up the rape subject.


  158. Hors Service said


    Or you could use contraception, efficient also against STDs, to avoid getting pregnant.
    And I think a life is not the same as a conscious life. We kill goats, insects, cows… Is a foetus a conscious human being? Debatable, at least. Whereas born people, even criminals, are intelligent beings… They have a story, feelings… Foetus doesn’t.

    To me, it’s like prohibition, as previously said: you should allow a controlled drinking of alcohol, even if you know that there will be some abuse, because the total interdiction will in fact be worse.


    I agree with you: and let’s not forget those whose life is in danger because of the baby…

    Although, to me, a good solution should also include large and easily accessible adoption programs.


  159. Patty said

    Hello Rj, you pathetic smart ass, abortion is murder, unwanted? unwanted.. hmm well isn’t there adoption? Oh wait that’s right, women and men like you are too scared to go that route. What is it embarassing to have a pregnant belly? People like you are cowards. Further more, if one is raped, go to a hospital where they clean you and terminate any chance of one getting pregnant. Other than that, if you do not want to risk the chance of getting pregnant then quit having sex? Or get snipped or tied..

    ps. the mother should know she would be at risk if she got pregnant before she chose to have sex. it is just a matter of not being lazy and knowing more about your body before you open yourself to the possibilty of pregnancy.


  160. Naomi said

    @Patty, I don’t think the first thing a woman would be doing after she gets raped is running to the hospital to terminate any chance of getting pregnant… just saying.


  161. princessxxx said

    Naomi, you go girl! @patty sounds like some holy roller, i wonder how many children she’s adopted or how much money she donates to causes for orphaned children? my guess, ZERO


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